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Starry Wisdom
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Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Why is it not common sense to suppose that ISIS would prefer to use EU nationals in an attack within the EU?
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Worry not, we've all done it. In fact, I managed not only wrong thread, but wrong board. I was posting here and on Stampboards, and made a post on here re the nomenclature of stamps.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
What evidence do you have for this?
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Don't you think they might just be on a list of suspects and would need to avoid that way?
elbows
Well-Known Member
There are two things. We can talk about the theoretical possibility of these routes being used by people who go on to commit acts of terror. We can discuss what evidence there is that it was the case in these attacks. They are two different things, and suggesting the latter is not a conclusion that can be firmly reached with the available evidence right now is not the same as ruling out any consideration of the possibility or the broader theoretical possibilities.
The onus is on you to prove the route used, not on others to dispute the 'information'. If you think they are disputing some concrete evidence, present it for discussion.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
no, not with a fake passport.
a fake passport is fine to cross a land border with 4 police/border guards and 3,000 people trying to cross at the same time. trying to get on - or off - a plane with a fake passport is likely to see you being detected and arrested.
given that it looks like one of the on-site Paris team - the 'mastermind' - was believed to have been in Syria but now appears to have been happily living in Paris, it appears pretty obvious that theres a hole in the border.
in addition, both the Greeks and Austrians have reported that the fingerprints of one of the suicide bombers match those of a person claiming to be a refugee who passed through their countries in the last two months. the above report from this EU official contradicts that, but i'd ask myself who would be more likely to know - the immigration/border agencies of Greece and Austria, or a EU person?
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
tbh have you seen the chaos at the train stations in munich and the like? If your a tired, stressed border guard whose on your feet checking hundreds of peoples passports a day, if not thousands, you might easily start waving people through and a lot of the checks would have been perfunctory and not at all like the checks you get in an airport. A guy on his own would attract more attention than someone in a crowd of thousands of people.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
Yes, I've seen that. It's how they get there in the first place - it's arduous and dangerous whether by land or sea. But I guess if they are determined enough to kill people at the end of it they will endure it.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
And yes, obviously it's no reason to treat migrants shittily. Though suspecting that one in ten thousand might be a terrorist and looking for them might be shitty treatment in itself.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
indeed - having seen the kind of chaos at arse-end-of-nowhere border crossings, you could wave your Tesco club card and you'd go through.
i'd have thought that its just as likely that these are returning EU jihadists as Syrians/Chechens/whatever - they know they'll have been pinged by the various intelligence/security agencies and that they'll be on a list, so if they need to travel they just ditch their real identity, buy a knocked off Syrian passport in Turkey and trust in the completely overwhelmed border guard/police officer trying to manage several thousand refugees not taking a close look at the passport.
i'd have thought that its just as likely that these are returning EU jihadists as Syrians/Chechens/whatever - they know they'll have been pinged by the various intelligence/security agencies and that they'll be on a list, so if they need to travel they just ditch their real identity, buy a knocked off Syrian passport in Turkey and trust in the completely overwhelmed border guard/police officer trying to manage several thousand refugees not taking a close look at the passport.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
An article i was reading earlier on today made the important point that jihadists are just like us in terms of how important they see their political views, ie its not a case of someone being radicalised or not, since the paris attackers seem to of been on the periphery of jihadi networks and were not really being monitored by security services, that its only 'the most dangerous' who are monitored. But someone who has been a proper dangerous jihadi might drop out of activity and get a job, have kids etc whereas someone who has been disillusioned with it for ages might suddenly get inspired by IS and decide to get back in to it. A bit like someone getting their hopes up at some new thing on the left whereas someone whose been deeply involved for ages decides to sack it off.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Silly me. Obviously they would take the sea route. No brainer.
Are you serious?
I think Kebabking explained it eloquently enough.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
You missed my retraction above. No need to beat me up.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I know what you mean. I don't want any of the attackers to have arrived with refugees either. But whether they did or not doesn't change how I view refugees and their arrival. It's not as if there would have been no way for them to come if there weren't refugees.
The main reason I dread the identification of any of the attackers as having come with refugees is the consequences of that for refugees and others. We've already seen the hatred in the Sunday papers on the basis of virtually nothing. If six of the attackers were European, say, and one a recently arrived Syrian, the whole story in certain bigotted quarters will be that one Syrian.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
Yeah, it doesn't change how you and I and others on here view refugees and their arrival but it turbocharges the hate in the Daily Mail, its cartoonist and eager readers.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
I can understand the concern for the plight of ordinary refugees and the fear of consequences for them that could occur in the case that terrorists mingle with them. However, everyone needs to take a reality check and have the answers for if or when such a baklash happens.
No.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Well here's one simple answer. If 80 per cent or 90 per cent of the terrorists were European, where does the main problem lie wrt to the recruiting and organising of terrorists who will attack in Europe?
That won't be the story with the likes of the Daily Mail, who will be (already are) screaming about the threat of refugees (note: they will scream anti-refugee bile, not anti-terrorist bile). And it will still be a lie in where they are pointing at the danger.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
TBF, it does seem rather unlikely that they'd have a bunch of suicide belts, quite possibly made up with the notoriously unstable "Mother of Satan" TATP explosive, hanging around just on the off-chance.
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existentialist
Tired and unemotional
No, I think she gets to be one of the 72 virgins. No idea of the theological basis for this sherbert'n'virgins stuff, though.
ETA: ah. Fatwa 11419 says female martyrs just get the one bloke, but that they will be satisfied by him. So, like a kind of guarantee, then.
Except that nobody on the left is likely to be re-inspired into systematically executing members of an heavy metal audience.
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
Brilliant.
Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
We've got round to fatwas against cartoonists. Be patient.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Sorry , i wasnt really being 100 % serious, it was a tasteless attempt to put some humour into a grim topic. 
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
But the point is that you cant be either 'radicalised' or 'not' - someone can get disillusioned / deradicalised and then back again very very quickly (and some of the supposedly highly dangerous individuals dont carry out attacks and go back to their kids/job/whatever) so this makes the job of knowing who is the most dangerous very difficult
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