Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

[DrRingDing]

The three Islamic gentlemen who stabbed a Jew in Marseille claimed to be IS. The could just as well have said they were Hamas or any other Islamist faction. Same shit. IS are the brand of the month.

Fuck off.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

Sorry , i wasnt really being 100 % serious, it was a tasteless attempt to put some humour into a grim topic.

No need to be sorry. I did actually laugh. But you do get some people who try to make excuses for these (add insult according to taste.)

 

[Jimmy Turr]

Fuck off.

Why? It's largely true.

But the point is that you cant be either 'radicalised' or 'not' - someone can get disillusioned / deradicalised and then back again very very quickly (and some of the supposedly highly dangerous individuals dont carry out attacks and go back to their kids/job/whatever) so this makes the job of knowing who is the most dangerous very difficult

As with many other of our contemporay infernos, there is no definitive answer.

 

[DrRingDing]

Why? It's largely true.

JHE is a racist toerag.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

JHE is a racist toerag.

I've noticed his anti-Islam stance, but nothing that can be construed as racist. If he's racist, why hasn't he been banned?

 

[Casually Red]

None of these links say the west created Isis, created in a sense they actually recruited, trained them and put them on the ground in the same way they would their own state forces. That's what the loon in the video is arguing along with how refugees are a deliberate plot to destabilise the Balkans.

I don't think anyone's going to argue that the west haven't played a large part in creating the conditions for these groups to flourish, but making out it's entirely that is ridiculous and suggests people in that part of the world have no agency at all. It's also worth mentioning Russia's hand in fostering conditions too by, I dunno, invading Afghanistan in the 1980s? Without that there would be no mujahedeen to oppose them but I realise criticising anything Russia ever does anywhere ever is beyond you.

Rubbish, the mujahideen were already there fighting the Afghan army prior to Russia's arrival . Prior to that though the Islamists weren't a western cause célèbre . Just like they were in Syria . So they weren't equipped and paid to the tune of billions by a superpower and it's hangers on . You'll be telling us the Nicaraguan contras were freedom fighters next .
These bastards haven't been pulling guns and salaries out of their holes . Billions were pumped into Syria in the form of finance, arms and equipment and training . Literally billions . these people had only one agency and it's the Central Intelligence Agency .
The western powers and their allies wanted Syria overthrown, they spent billions on that project but succeeded only in gravely destabilising the place. That destabilisation,as continually predicted by a host of dissenting voices, has now spread and rebounded against the states which used terrorism as their proxy to pursue their goals .
You're arguing there's no direct cause and effect link between western powers and gulf allies sending billions in arms shipments, training and finance to insurgents and the rise and empowerment of those insurgents . It's a nonsense .

 

[frogwoman]

No need to be sorry. I did actually laugh. But you do get some people who try to make excuses for these (add insult according to taste.)

Oh i know seen far too much of it the last few days.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

So it's all a western plot is it? America and Britain topple the Iraqi regime and then funds those same generals from the Iraqi regime they toppled to get them to overthrow the Syrian regime and replace it with an even worse regime than the regime they toppled in Iraq. Yes this makes perfect sense, I see it so clearly now. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

 

[Casually Red]

So it's all a western plot is it? America and Britain topple the Iraqi regime and then funds those same generals from the Iraqi regime they toppled to get them to overthrow the Syrian regime and replace it with an even worse regime than the regime they toppled in Iraq. Yes this makes perfect sense, I see it so clearly now. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

Are you seriously..seriously..claiming the western / NATO powers, in concert with their gulf allies have not been providing Islamist insurgent groups in Syria with billions of dollars worth of aid, arms and munitions for the past 4 years in order to overthrow the Syrian government. ? Are you seriously stating this is not the case ?

Are you also claiming Mr Al Baghdadi is a former Iraqi General ?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

You just read what you wanna read don't you? Did it ever occur to you that maybe the gulf states act independently of the US and NATO? Where did I even mention baghdadi? In fact where did I mention half the shite you're banging on about? I just happen to think things are a little more complicated than your NATO... Boo! Russia... Yay! Level of analysis.

 

[Casually Red]

You just read what you wanna read don't you? Did it ever occur to you that maybe the gulf states act independently of the US and NATO? Where did I even mention baghdadi? In fact where did I mention half the shite you're banging on about? I just happen to think things are a little more complicated than your NATO... Boo! Russia... Yay! Level of analysis.

Ok so...you're going to continually skip over the inconvenience of Britain France and the united states supplying billions in arms , finance and training to Islamist insurgents ...directly fuelling that insurgency ...and rather than deny the undeniable just avoid it .

See where your coming from now .

Eta

You've clearly stated the IS leadership consists predominantly of former Baathist generals . It doesn't . More nonsense .

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Ok so...you're going to continually skip over the inconvenience of Britain France and the united states supplying billions in arms , finance and training to Islamist insurgents ...directly fuelling that insurgency ...and rather than deny the undeniable just avoid it .

See where your coming from now .

Eta

You've clearly stated the IS leadership consists predominantly of former Baathist generals . It doesn't . More nonsense .

I might carry this on and if I do I'll take it to the Isis or Syria thread as it's more relevant there. I don't wanna turn this thread into something from Russia today.

 

[Casually Red]

Yes, move swiftly on .

 

[bimble]

Fatwa 11419 says female martyrs just get the one bloke, but that they will be satisfied by him. So, like a kind of guarantee, then.

What? Have been holding back tasteless comment on IS as an equal opportunities employer but this is a serious glass ceiling.

 

[bimble]

If six of the attackers were European, say, and one a recently arrived Syrian, the whole story in certain bigotted quarters will be that one Syrian.

From an undisclosed location embedded behind the lines of certain bigotted quarters I can report with some certainty that the facts of the nationality of the actual people involved in Paris will make not the blindest bit of difference to the idea that we are being overrun by a swarming tide of refugee-terrorists and that Something Must Be Done.

 

[elbows]

Despite the name they are not death metal band, so its a mistake to describe a death metal audience.

 

[CNT36]

Rubbish, the mujahideen were already there fighting the Afghan army prior to Russia's arrival . Prior to that though the Islamists weren't a western cause célèbre .......... So they weren't equipped and paid to the tune of billions by a superpower and it's hangers on .

They weren't but were likely funded to a degree before the soviets sent the troops in. Brzezinski has bragged about it claiming to have provided support in order to pull the Soviets in. It could be bluster though there was some evidence that the US were involved at least as early as the time of the Herat Uprising.

 

[bimble]

Despite the name they are not death metal band, so its a mistake to describe a death metal audience.

No I read somewhere their songs like their name are humorous . Maybe that was the problem rather than it being just totally random or something to do with Jewish ownership of the place.

 

[bimble]

.

 

[butchersapron]

I've seen stuff that basically says that one thing that would hit Daesh hard economically would be to bomb the oil infrastructure in the areas under their occupation. Have you come across that one at all, in your reading? If so, does it seem like a viable proposal?

Operation Tidal Wave II is now officially go. Tidal Wave I was hitting the romanian oil industry in WW2.

And a bit of additional info on why ISIS controlling some oil supplies doesn't impact on world prices.

edit: some worries

One opposition source summarizes:

Only rebel brigades have fuel reserves. During the recent fuel crisis [in northern Syria], they have supplied hospitals and other important facilities with fuel, while pressing Daesh [the Islamic State] to stop the blockade of fuel to liberated areas.

When the US coalition destroys the tanker trucks which supply the north, there is no leverage [with ISIS]. Turkey forbids fuel exports, so the civilians will suffer. Rebels cannot give them diesel for their generators any more.

The sources predict that this winter’s crisis will be “way worse” than cut-offs this summer. They say that, even if Turkey allows supplies to northern Syria, there is no infrastructure for transport: “NGOs do not have fuel tankers, and the few that currently get the fuel from the east will be destroyed by the US.”

 

[bimble]

$1.5 million per day. I see now why they are largely self sufficient, financially.

 

[alan_]

No I read somewhere their songs like their name are humorous . Maybe that was the problem rather than it being just totally random or something to do with Jewish ownership of the place.

Their name is humorous and should be read in a literal fashion, they are the Eagles (ie MOR lightweight band) of death metal if one can imagine such a thing.

 

[Nailed On]

Despite the name they are not death metal band, so its a mistake to describe a death metal audience.

I think defining the genre of music/audience is irrelevant tbth.

All that matters is that the audience were all innocent human beings attacked by terrorists of a death cult.

 

[2hats]

Suspected ringleader Abaaoud was amongst dead in the St-Denis raid, various news media are now confirming.

 

[existentialist]

Suspected ringleader Abaaoud was amongst dead in the St-Denis raid, various news media are now confirming.

That's one big loose end tied up, then. I was thinking that he was coming across as being remarkably smart, so far, but maybe not.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Good god the Je Suis Diesel thing is a bit much isn't it? I get that it was started in jest but the fact some take it literally but barely seem to know about bombings in Beirut kinda makes me gag. I love dogs but fucking hell!

Time for a social media hiatus I think.

 

[Pickman's model]

Good god the Je Suis Diesel thing is a bit much isn't it? I get that it was started in jest but the fact some take it literally but barely seem to know about bombings in Beirut kinda makes me gag. I love dogs but fucking hell!

Time for a social media hiatus I think.

good thing hyde park bombed in the 80s or there'd be a load of people going 'je suis sefton' or some similar nonsense.

 

[2hats]

I was thinking that he was coming across as being remarkably smart, so far, but maybe not.

Possibly (some of) the information regarding his whereabouts and movements were a bluff on the part of intelligence services.

 

[existentialist]

good thing hyde park bombed in the 80s or there'd be a load of people going 'je suis sefton' or some similar nonsense.

They sort of did. I was quite shocked at the way, for some people, the deaths of the horses seemed to overshadow the deaths of the people.

I think we have to be cautious about writing this kind of concern for animals off as "nonsense", though - there are all kinds of reasons why we might have an emotional reaction on a different scale where animals are concerned - I remember the Hyde Park bombing, and I think one of the reasons the death of the horses was so significant was that it was so unusual (in peacetime civilian life, anyway).

Even without going near the animal rights end of the argument, we (humans) like animals, and it is bound to be upsetting to quite a few when an animal dies in this way. Some of those might even feel quite confused and uncomfortable with having those feelings when so many people died, so maybe the #jesuis... stuff is just a way of finding some comfort and solidarity.

I'm obviously in a good mood today.

 

[existentialist]

Possibly (some of) the information regarding his whereabouts and movements were a bluff on the part of intelligence services.

Maybe they thought that bigging him up would make him a bit more cocky and take more risks. Or maybe I watched too much Hunted