Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

[ViolentPanda]

I agree that we shouldn't ban encryption on the basis Daesh use it. But it seems fucking stupid to say that they dont use it!

Although it's still worth asking "if they didn't use encrypted comms, why not?" as much for what it tells us about the nature of the "local" organisation, as for what it tells us about possible paranoia about state intercepts.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Just because they are intolerant of other Muslims, it doesn't mean they're not a part of Islam. As I said, they control Mecca, and the rest of the Muslim world seems rather passive about that.

Nobody has suggested using this fact as a stick to beat anybody.

They're not so much "intolerant of other Muslims", as "murderously opposed to anyone who isn't in their sect".

Also, the "rest of the Muslim world" aren't exactly overflowing with gratitude about the holy places being in Wahhabi hands, but there's not a lot they can do, this side of Saudi rule changing.

 

[bimble]

The photos of what its like in the middle of Brussels today, it's almost surreal, though a lot of that is the face covering thing.
Just goes to show that terrorism works, I suppose. "Locals were told to avoid gatherings, train stations, airports and commercial districts. Service was halted on the Brussels Metro, as well as on tram lines running underground". Understandably, of course.

​

 

[DaveCinzano]

They're not so much "intolerant of other Muslims", as "murderously opposed to anyone who isn't in their sect".

What's wrong with being sectsy?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Was your unquoted post directed at me?
If so your lack of cultural knowledge of spurs should embarrass you
as for the pathetic mucking fuppet...let's have a proper private chat. .and find out who the real muppet is..

Please don't tell me you're going to stick your hand up his arse!!

 

[bimble]

Also, the "rest of the Muslim world" aren't exactly overflowing with gratitude about the holy places being in Wahhabi hands, but there's not a lot they can do, this side of Saudi rule changing.

For some reason I was looking at this a while back (about the luxury hotels being built at Mecca by the Bin Laden construction company).Saudi Binladin Group Not everybody is delighted by the way the place is changing, apparently. Bit like Brixton perhaps.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

yeh. you seem to think there is something singular about muslims, something noteworthy about them using holy books to justify their actions: and tbh you seem to be more than a tad islamophobic. wouldn't be surprised if we lost the pleasure of your company quite soon.

Fuck me, whatever happened to certain ex- CW members with their 'please add me to your list of Islamophobes'? Circa 2006, I seem to recollect.

I've said nothing about individual Muslims, only the different brands of Islam.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

you seem to be ignoring the number of senior baathists in isis. i suppose they don't fit the agenda you're pursuing.

I'm not pursuing an agenda, you silly lad. What do you think this is?
Does the number of ex-Baathists in ISIS somehow make it less Muslim or something?

 

[Jimmy Turr]

They're not so much "intolerant of other Muslims", as "murderously opposed to anyone who isn't in their sect".

Also, the "rest of the Muslim world" aren't exactly overflowing with gratitude about the holy places being in Wahhabi hands, but there's not a lot they can do, this side of Saudi rule changing.

In fact, much of the rest of the Muslim world seems to be getting more Wahabbi influenced due to the Saudi funding of Islamic institutions.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

No, its not that. It's the fact there has been no shortage of acknowledgement of this side of the shit for about 14 years now. If I'm downplaying its, its not because I think its irrelevant or that for someone to acknowledge it for the 8 billionth time since 2001 represents a new threat towards the innocent.

Here's one for you. Lets think in terms of a pool of people who might potentially end up committing an act of bloody terror. Some may end up in this pool, at least in part, due to some violent interpretation of Islamic teachings. But how many Muslims never get anywhere near that pool, at least in part, because of some of their Islamic beliefs?

Yes, but nobody's actually said that the vast majority of Muslims want to get anywhere near that pool.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

I can't believe we are back at the w/c of the middleast- 1/5 of the world just being just ISIS material.

Again, who has actually said this?

 

[ViolentPanda]

For what it is worth, The Economist argues the repsonse should be:

More surveillance, with safeguards
More resources for 'weak link' security forces such as Belgium's
Enhanced EU perimeter border force
Flight data sharing between states
But no fresh curbs on refugees

More trainers and special forces in Syria
Avoid getting into bed with Putin
Potentially, a UN or even Western ground force

Federalising Iraq and Syria along ethnic or sectarian lines

And some hopeful stuff about removing Assad and persuading neighbouring states to stop interfering.

The federalising idea might benefit "big business" (especially in regards of an independent Iraqi Kurdistan), but Western ideas about splitting Mesopotamia etc up into discrete territories is what helped get to this pass in the first place!

As for an enhanced EU border force, The Economist needs to research how costly it would be to enhance even a tenth of Europe's Mediterranean coast with means suitable for stopping or significantly slowing illegal immigration and smuggling - it's pretty much materially and financially impossible, and current efforts made rely mostly on random seaborne intercepts, and the "policing" of (large and small,admittedly) ports. Small boats doing beach landings are much harder to "police" unless you have an inshore blockade.

 

[bimble]

Fuck me, whatever happened to certain ex- CW members with their 'please add me to your list of Islamophobes'? Circa 2006, I seem to recollect.
I've said nothing about individual Muslims, only the different brands of Islam.

I've just come back from 4 days spent with people who do not want to think about anything but are certain that Something Must Be Done. Not bad people, just mentally lazy, the kind who just watch the news on tv. ie, most people probably.
Thing is that the laziest easiest thing to do is note that all these nutters are muslims, see, like the Taliban, and those Al Quaida chaps. And if you're unwilling to spend any time on asking questions that start with Why, then you'll be satisfied with that; this must all be going on because muslims are, you know, scary and dangerous. That (I reckon) is why any hope of a future that is better than this current situation depends on people who can be bothered finding the time to ask the Why questions instead of settling for some vague idea that there is something uniquely toxic about the Quran.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

I've just come back from 4 days spent with people who do not want to think about anything but are certain that Something Must Be Done. Not bad people, just mentally lazy, the kind who just watch the news on tv. ie, most people probably.
Thing is that the laziest easiest thing to do is note that all these nutters are muslims, see, like the Taliban, and those Al Quaida chaps. And if you're unwilling to spend any time on asking questions that start with Why.. then you'll be satisfied with that, the idea that this must all be going on because muslims are, you know, scary and dangerous. That (I think) is why any hope of a future that is better than this current situation depends on people who can be bothered making an effort to ask the Why questions and not settle for some vague idea that there is something uniquely toxic about the Quran.

As I said, there are many of those asking the very relevant questions as to why who are content to try and brush over-or deny completely-the plausibly Islamic nature of ISIS and similar. Whether the Koran is uniquely toxic or not is largely irrelevant to the matter.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In fact, much of the rest of the Muslim world seems to be getting more Wahabbi influenced due to the Saudi funding of Islamic institutions.

You state this as though it implies acceptance of that influence, yet there's a fair amount of evidence (Ahmed Rashid's books and journalism are a good place to start) that Saudi influence in general is resisted in many states with majority Muslim populations, not least because Wahhabism is sectarian and divisive, and most of those populations are heterogeneous. The Sufi, Shia and other branches (even the Sunnis for a large part) don't want a homogeneous Islam - they're happy doing their own thing, and avoiding religious wars.

 

[bimble]

As I said, there are many of those asking the very relevant questions as to why who are content to try and brush over-or deny completely-the plausibly Islamic nature of ISIS and similar. Whether the Koran is uniquely toxic or not is largely irrelevant to the matter.

Yes, I agree. My post was an attempt to explain why that may be happening.

You may find this interesting:
'Marc Sageman, a former CIA operation officer with the Afghan mujahidin in the late 1980s, and now an academic and counter-terrorism consultant to the US and other governments, similarly finds that ‘a lack of religious literacy and education appears to be a common feature among those that are drawn to [terrorist] groups.’ ‘At the time they joined jihad’, Sageman observes, ‘terrorists were not very religious. They only became religious once they joined the jihad.’

RADICALIZATION IS NOT SO SIMPLE

 

[Jimmy Turr]

You state this as though it implies acceptance of that influence, yet there's a fair amount of evidence (Ahmed Rashid's books and journalism are a good place to start) that Saudi influence in general is resisted in many states with majority Muslim populations, not least because Wahhabism is sectarian and divisive, and most of those populations are heterogeneous. The Sufi, Shia and other branches (even the Sunnis for a large part) don't want a homogeneous Islam - they're happy doing their own thing, and avoiding religious wars.

Good for them.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

Yes, I agree. My post was an attempt to explain why that may be happening.

You may find this interesting:
'Marc Sageman, a former CIA operation officer with the Afghan mujahidin in the late 1980s, and now an academic and counter-terrorism consultant to the US and other governments, similarly finds that ‘a lack of religious literacy and education appears to be a common feature among those that are drawn to [terrorist] groups.’ ‘At the time they joined jihad’, Sageman observes, ‘terrorists were not very religious. They only became religious once they joined the jihad.’

RADICALIZATION IS NOT SO SIMPLE

So the Jihadists are religious then?

 

[bimble]

So the Jihadists are religious then?

I see you don't have the time to read the article that is quoted from. I mean that quote that says that the jihaddists are notably ignorant about Islam. It's really good, honest.
Spending time with people, perfectly decent people, who put all of this down to there being something uniquely murderous about Islam has left me feeling very sad, simply because that way lies no hope.
About a quarter of the people on the planet apparently self define as Muslims of one 'brand'(your word) or another.
If I was the boss of the world we'd be living in a John Lennon song but, you know, seeing as self definition along ethnic/religious lines seems to be quite the thing now - more than it was before Darwin published..

 

[Jimmy Turr]

I see you don't have the time to read the article that is quoted from. I mean that quote that says that the jihaddists are notably ignorant about Islam. It's really good, honest.

Of course I haven't had time to read it-you only posted it a few minutes ago. I was commenting on the quote about them becoming religious once they joined the Jihad.
It doesn't surprise me. As a famous contemporary French writer has commented, there's about as much chance of the average Muslim reading the Koran as most Christians reading the bible (to paraphrase.)

 

[bimble]

Of course I haven't had time to read it-you only posted it a few minutes ago. I was commenting on the quote about them becoming religious once they joined the Jihad.
It doesn't surprise me. As a famous contemporary French writer has commented, there's about as much chance of the average Muslim reading the Koran as most Christians reading the bible (to paraphrase.)

Ok. So, to put it bluntly, ... what are you on about ?

 

[Pickman's model]

Fuck me, whatever happened to certain ex- CW members with their 'please add me to your list of Islamophobes'? Circa 2006, I seem to recollect.

I've said nothing about individual Muslims, only the different brands of Islam.

what a strange post from someone who only joined us so recently. are you the same person you were nine years ago, with exactly the same views? wouldn't be surprised if like the bourbons you'd neither learned anything or forgotten anything.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not pursuing an agenda, you silly lad. What do you think this is?
Does the number of Baathists in ISIS somehow make it less Muslim or something?

of course you're pursuing an agenda, as are we all.

 

[bimble]

of course you're pursuing an agenda, as are we all.

Are we? Maybe it should be made compulsory to write a manifesto on your profile page.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

Ok. So, to put it bluntly, ... what are you on about ?

I suppose it could have remained with one uncontroversial comment if it hadn't be for the readiness of some to sniff out so-called Islamophobia. And that uncontroversial comment simply stated that ISIS and other Jihadists, being Wahabbi inspired, base themselves on a plausible and widely accepted interpretation of Islam (though they may or may not do that loosely, I'll leave that one to the amateur experts on Islam and the world in general.) And that those who try to deny this are, in my opinion, incorrect.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

of course you're pursuing an agenda, as are we all.

You might be. I'm here to entertain myself.

 

[Pickman's model]

Are we? Maybe it should be made compulsory to write a manifesto on your profile page.

maybe you genuinely aren't, which would go some way to explaining why you're all over the place.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

Are we? Maybe it should be made compulsory to write a manifesto on your profile page.

Some on here seem to regard it as serious political work.

 

[Pickman's model]

You might be. I'm here to entertain myself.

there you go, you are pursuing an agenda. pity you're not entertaining anyone else.

 

[agricola]

what a strange post from someone who only joined us so recently. are you the same person you were nine years ago, with exactly the same views? wouldn't be surprised if like the bourbons you'd neither learned anything or forgotten anything.

... or been left at the bottom of the tin to go stale.