They are Wahabbi inspired. Are you trying to claim they're not Islamic when it's Wahabbis who control the holy shrines and all that tosh?
Pointing out that ISIS wouldn't exist without Islam is hardly starting an argument.
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Pointing out that ISIS wouldn't exist without Islam is hardly starting an argument.
coley
Well-Known Member
The point being that even if most Muslims disagree with them, ISIS do say they are Islamic and use Islam to justify their actions.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You keep him nailed down on this everything is the same and shit and always has been vein and others can move forwards elsewhere. Oh yeah,they can't because the future is worse than the past. But the same.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
So basically, what you are saying is that you think an organization that calls itself the Islamic State of Iraq and Ash-Sham might claim to be something to do with Islam?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Nothing would ever change in jimmy's world, it was over. Globally. Then some things change. His response: They were shit.
The Boss has had his drinkies again.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
Oh Greg Proops. That wins the argument.
No, everybody else wins. They're moving on with The Boss. He believes in The Promised Land...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I was born in 1959 and i'll die in 1959. You're really just a silly old man who thinks saying things are shit is worth your time now.
Did you ever think that you'd end up just saying things are shit?
Is it the drink or early signs of dementia?
I suspect it's the strain of being the Lenin of the mesageboard revolution.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This is shit. That's shit.That thing over there,it's shit. That thing, i can't reach it,what is it..oh..it's shit. I shat in it, i remember now.
Piss off Butchers. I actually agree with the bulk of what you say and didn't come on this thread for an argument with you. Sorry if I've spoiled it for you (it is after all your personal property to spoil) by thinking the wrong things.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I don't know much about your personal life.
Why do you bother - coming back with your boring stuff all the time. You pretend that you don't want to be here yet make repeated desperate attempts to be here.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The gloom. I can't take the gloom. It's irrelevant whether we agree or not.
Will you please stop derailing your own thread with hissy fit.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Hissy fits are all i got left. Been a hard week.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's hardly an argument at all, tbh. I'm not sure where any of this gets you. Do you understand the Westboro Baptist Church by equating it with more mainstream strands of Christianity?
Christians, why don't you sort out the haters at Westboro, ffs? That's the kind of argument you're leading to.
I didn't realize that pointing out that Islamists are Islamic would cause so much consternation.
I haven't suggested anybody should sort out anything, not least because I don't believe it's a feasible project in this case.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I don't think thats a safe assumption. Their underlying motives may be fuelled by many different things that have nothing to do with Islam at all. A bloody interpretation of Islam may simply affect the way these motivations are channeled, the language and justifications used, the way a sense of belonging, identity and purpose is fostered.
I'm sure that people of all beliefs and disbeliefs may have had similar evolutions of thought and feeling over the centuries. A burning sense of injustice, and the need to find a framework with which to struggle against the injustice and try to achieve a particular alternative. How easily this struggle may be corrupted and errors made which lead the person to take actions that are deeply wrong and counterproductive to the cause. No religion or political stance has a monopoly on these failings, almost all are susceptible given the right combination of variables.
If I'm against drawing attention to the Islam aspect in the way you do, its because its the bleeding obvious which is almost automatically overstated in the minds of many who pay superficial attention. So please don't be surprised if you find people downplaying it, for I'm sure many of them do so in order to try to restore a proper sense of balance. It's not a point that needs making, its a point that leaps out and obscures the view of other important points. It's a point that invites many people to be mislabelled as being somehow prone to follow the cause of a great enemy.
How could it not be the case that factors outside of Islamic scripture/dogma are coming into play? It doesn't mean Islam (an interpretation of) isn't still the glue that holds it all together. Nor are bloody interpretations of Islam anything new. That other ideologies and faiths have displayed similar behaviours is hardly relevant-it's always been a filthy world and always will be.
Downplay it all you like, and although I can see the reasons for it (not primarily for balance but out of fear of the 'uncivilized mob'), I suspect people are not generally daft enough to swallow the idea that Islam is somehow outside and separate from all this.
Humberto
Relax
I'm surprised anyone is still tearing themselves apart over this. This region where 3 faiths came from, it was all self-preservation. But without the capitalist western aristocracy they would be at peace indefinitely.
The cunts did not stand when necessary. They are corrupt and always run away. Why the fuck do we let them have any say instead of none?
You are going to perfectly antagonise millions of believers at home and tens of millions abroad without repercussion?
Who has been punished here and continues to be? Not US. I doubt they know what has hit them whilst we agonise over the tenets of 'Islam' as we've been fed.
The outcome at this stage can never be perfect but it can be much less grim if we stop them driving, provoking and fermenting.
The cunts did not stand when necessary. They are corrupt and always run away. Why the fuck do we let them have any say instead of none?
You are going to perfectly antagonise millions of believers at home and tens of millions abroad without repercussion?
Who has been punished here and continues to be? Not US. I doubt they know what has hit them whilst we agonise over the tenets of 'Islam' as we've been fed.
The outcome at this stage can never be perfect but it can be much less grim if we stop them driving, provoking and fermenting.
elbows
Well-Known Member
What makes you think that is the glue? I could pick from quite a list of other factors that I could equally claim were the glue, and ascribe some other, relatively superficial or incidental, non-core role to Islam itself.
Saying its the glue implies that one hell of an effective way to destroy the current state of affairs would be to destroy the effectiveness of the glue. I don't see how thats actually an option if you think the glue is Islam, so whats the point going down that route?
There are other variables that can and at some point probably will change, and they will be the difference-makers one day. The level of Muslim belief won't need to change in order for the game to change, nor will Islams teachings, and I consider that a bloody good reason not to overplay its role. Its the obvious factor, too obvious, the other ones bear more fruit but are far less often mentioned.
It's the glue that's potent enough for them to declare the Islamic caliphate...
Again, in your eyes it seems to be only a step from acknowledging this and the threat of some form of anti-Islamic fascism. In actual fact it implies nothing, as you'll see as Europe and the US carry on muddling through in the same old way. They'll inflict some damage (while bending over backwards to remind us that 'it's really nothing to do with Islam' - and what else can they do?), ISIS and co will splinter and regroup and carry on, under a different label, with the same shit, and we the rabble will continue to anguish over it. Right wing minority parties may flourish for a time in some places. Temporary fame and modest fortune, but little real power, will come to some of their leaders.
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Humberto
Relax
Its this Islam that is problem. Not fucking never running out of planes with their infinite missiles and bombs.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Can we, to make this useful, point out the exact connection between islam and extremists.
Actually first can we agree that there is one? It's clearly a lie to deny that ISIS have nothing to with islam, in the same way it's a lie to say that what they are not doing is about islam.
So who here knows enough about that?
This one?
Actually first can we agree that there is one? It's clearly a lie to deny that ISIS have nothing to with islam, in the same way it's a lie to say that what they are not doing is about islam.
So who here knows enough about that?
This one?
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