Manchester Arena incident - many reported dead

[Beats & Pieces]

It's not one sided, it's down-the-line theology 101 but you're right it may not be the right thread for it.

I disagree, but appreciate the reply.

 

[Beats & Pieces]

Er I think you'll find that the jewish, christian or muslim god is in fact alien to these fair isles as those religions emanate from palestine and arabia respectively

No. They may not be indigenous, but your locating origin is problematic.

 

[Beats & Pieces]

Of course not but they don't need to. Scholastic justifications for their strain of Islam already exist. I'd link to one but I really don't want to, nobody needs to read that crap (and those kinds of commentaries aren't hard to Google for)

Why do you consider this stuff as 'crap'?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Of course not but they don't need to. Scholastic justifications for their strain of Islam already exist. I'd link to one but I really don't want to, nobody needs to read that crap (and those kinds of commentaries aren't hard to Google for)

I'd say that we DO need to read such crap, if we want to understand where Islamists are "coming from". If we read such stuff in context - both original, and modern interpreted context - we get a good picture of how corrupted from the original message the Islamist version is, and why it is corrupt.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Didn't know you were a British Israelite nixon.

Ouch!!!

 

[Beats & Pieces]

I'd say that we DO need to read such crap, if we want to understand where Islamists are "coming from". If we read such stuff in context - both original, and modern interpreted context - we get a good picture of how corrupted from the original message the Islamist version is, and why it is corrupt.

My only disagreement here is with the idea that an original idea existed, and even if it did, it would be possible to reconstruct, access or even understand any such construction. Renan's positivism just isn't available anymore here.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's not one sided, it's down-the-line theology 101 but you're right it may not be the right thread for it.

Not quite "theology 101". As usual there are fundamental ontological differences, as well as textual/scriptural differences. To put it bluntly, you could say that the basic purposes of Allah and Yahweh differ.

 

[ViolentPanda]

My only disagreement here is with the idea that an original idea existed, and even if it did, it would be possible to reconstruct, access or even understand any such construction. Renan's positivism just isn't available anymore here.

There's always an original idea, albeit often deeply buried, but of course that idea is going to be historically situated and, therefore, possibly not amenable to modern-day analysis even by "experts", let alone laymen.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The lost Britain of yore for which Doubledown pines doesn't have room for any of that imported nonsense, Jesus being a bloody foreigner too of course. Just oak trees and heroic mists, maybe some bunting.

And Druids, don't forget the bloody Druids!

 

[Pickman's model]

No. They may not be indigenous, but your locating origin is problematic.

Where do the gospels tell us jesus lived? And the arabian peninsula well-known as the birthplace of islam. So unless you think matthew, mark, luke, john, thomas and indeed judas, not to mention the author of acts were lying, less of your misinformed gobshitery.

 

[Beats & Pieces]

There's always an original idea, albeit often deeply buried, but of course that idea is going to be historically situated and, therefore, possibly not amenable to modern-day analysis even by "experts", let alone laymen.

I don't agree with the notion of an original idea - but absolutely agree with your further points. There just isn't the contemporary material available to provide a coherent picture, at least certainly from within the 'tradition' itself. The exterior material can't do so, and as you might expect, the points of variance are significant. There is still a great deal of work to be done.

 

[Pickman's model]

The unfairness of it is what burns
one people's religions and culture
let not one hair be put out of place
and every woman kept in theirs
Politeness has become a curse
punishable to criticise an alien God
that is on the rise
Nothing about your culture be changed
let your theocracy prevail
But my heritage has just much right
not in the Koran but in the heritage of Britain
its history, its and great people and way of life
But to say so is trodden on
I won't call them do-gooders
because they do not do good
or love Islam they just hate the critic's of Islam more.
By doctrine driven as a communist directive
all facts forced a fit the party line.
Defeat the Tories through open borders
up the numbers, pander to get their vote
I do not dwell on the past, what is done is done
All have a right to exist
But there is painful grieving to be done
for the Britain which is no more.

pisspoor platitudes

 

[Beats & Pieces]

Where do the gospels tell us jesus lived? And the arabian peninsula well-known as the birthplace of islam. So unless you think matthew, mark, luke, john, thomas and indeed judas, not to mention the author of acts were lying, less of your misinformed gobshitery.

My advice to you is to stop now. It is well meaning advice.

 

[Pickman's model]

My advice to you is to stop now. It is well meaning advice.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

What happens if I have the temerity to ignore your well meaning advice, bnp?

 

[ViolentPanda]

No. They may not be indigenous, but your locating origin is problematic.

The same issue holds true for most religions - you've always got the tension between how the originators wanted their system to be perceived, what might have actually happened, and how later adherents wanted their system to be believed.

 

[bimble]

The whole idea of a pure original truth of the scriptures is bollocks isn't it? The meaning of a thing is just its use by people in particular times and places, so it's pointless to say this interpretation of the dusty scroll is wrong that one over there is correct.

 

[Beats & Pieces]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

What happens if I have the temerity to ignore your well meaning advice, bnp?

First I am going to ask you to stop using the short form 'bnp'. It implies and suggests, by way of association, a relationship about which I am uncomfortable and disagree with strongly.

 

[Pickman's model]

First I am going to ask you to stop using the short form 'bnp'. It implies and suggests, by way of association, a relationship about which I am uncomfortable and disagree with strongly.

b&p then.

 

[Beats & Pieces]

b&p then.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

 

[mojo pixy]

I'd say that we DO need to read such crap, if we want to understand where Islamists are "coming from". If we read such stuff in context - both original, and modern interpreted context - we get a good picture of how corrupted from the original message the Islamist version is, and why it is corrupt.

I've read quite a lot of that kind of thing in the last few years and I find it hard going. Knock yourself out .. IMO it's a waste of effort but by all means ruin your day on google. I'll still not link to anything because I wouldn't link to nazi crap either.

Why do you consider this stuff as 'crap'?

Because it's violent, delusional, psychopathic and awful.

 

[Beats & Pieces]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

What happens if I have the temerity to ignore your well meaning advice, bnp?

I can't speak about the development of early Christianity, but the positivist approach to early Islam (exemplified by Renan), and the identification of 'Islam' with Arabia is problematic. There are a great many questions that exist, many for which we will (sadly) not likely be able to discover an answer.

 

[Beats & Pieces]

I've read quite a lot of that kind of thing in the last few years and I find it hard going. Knock yourself out .. IMO it's a waste of effort but by all means ruin your day on google. I'll still not link to anything because I wouldn't link to nazi crap either.



Because it's violent, delusional, psychopathic and awful.

Okay - what is violent, delusional etc.?

 

[mojo pixy]

the identification of 'Islam' with Arabia is problematic

Is the fact also problematic that the Koran and Hadiths are written in medieval Arabic and generally studying outside of that language is frowned upon, if not roundly condemned?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've read quite a lot of that kind of thing in the last few years and I find it hard going. Knock yourself out .. IMO it's a waste of effort but by all means ruin your day on google. I'll still not link to anything because I wouldn't link to nazi crap either.

I've been an anti-fascist for nearly 40 years, and I've found that you can't understand how these variants spring up, unless you're prepared to immerse yourself in the mire. I have copies of "Mein Kampf", "The Protocols..." and many other "crap" texts on my bookshelves, because I believe that "know your enemy" is a rational approach.

 

[mojo pixy]

Okay - what is violent, delusional etc.?

I've already said I'm not going to be linking to anything.
Try some intelligent internet searching if you need edifying in such a way.

 

[mojo pixy]

I've been an anti-fascist for nearly 40 years, and I've found that you can't understand how these variants spring up, unless you're prepared to immerse yourself in the mire. I have copies of "Mein Kampf", "The Protocols..." and many other "crap" texts on my bookshelves, because I believe that "know your enemy" is a rational approach.

I have read plenty of islamist crap but all I have ever got from it is a headache, and a sense of despair that there's no way to reasonably or even rationally engage with such beliefs. Literally no way. This is why I consider it a waste of time, when we know this enemy, what do we plan to do? Protest? They don't care. Fight? That's what they want.

 

[mojo pixy]

Sorry, I don't mean to come over as terse, but I spent several years trying to understand this kind of jihadi islamism, alone and with help from muslim friends (one of whom nearly persuaded me to convert many years ago). The only outcome for me was utter despair.

 

[Beats & Pieces]

I've already said I'm not going to be linking to anything.
Try some intelligent internet searching if you need edifying in such a way.

To be honest, if you wanted to explore this material I would suggest that the internet might be the last place you might want to consider as a place of authority or relevant source material. What I find interesting is your apparent discovery of a single and coherent point of departure for your post.

 

[mojo pixy]

Well I mention the internet because that's where we are. Paper books are available too if that's your thing.

 

[Beats & Pieces]

Is the fact also problematic that the Koran and Hadiths are written in medieval Arabic and generally studying outside of that language is frowned upon, if not roundly condemned?

Well, in the first instance the Qur'an is not written in Medieval Arabic, although we might want to explore what you mean by Qur'an?