Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 vanishes without trace

[Minnie_the_Minx]

It's hardly the biggest detail in all of this. Wonder why the press are so fixated on him having two houses? I guess we've reached the 'scraping the bottom of the barrel for any new details' part of the media coverage.

They're not fixated on him having two houses. That has almost been ignored. What is being bandied about is that his family MOVED OUT of the family home the day before the plane disappeared (without mentioning that he had a second home), speculating that either they knew something or loads of other theories (one of them I suppose being that they'd split up and he was upset about that, hence decided to take his own life, or something similar)

 

[equationgirl]

They're not fixated on him having two houses. That has almost been ignored. What is being bandied about is that his family MOVED OUT of the family home the day before the plane disappeared (without mentioning that he had a second home), speculating that either they knew something or loads of other theories (one of them I suppose being that they'd split up and he was upset about that, hence decided to take his own life, or something similar)

It's all speculation at the moment though isn't it, that because his wife and children went to the second home they moved out? It's them I feel for in all of this.

 

[equationgirl]

That's not to say I don't feel sorry for everyone on the aircraft, I do, very much so. Except hijackers, if there are/were shown to be any on the flight.

 

[weltweit]

Possibly the only hope the occupants are still alive is the possibility the plane was hijacked, by the pilots or others, and landed somewhere before the fuel ran out. It has to be unlikely, I doubt there are many tarmac runways you could land a Boeing 777-200, without people noticing, and a dirt runway would have had to been prepared in advance.

 

[2hats]

Possibly the only hope the occupants are still alive is the possibility the plane was hijacked, by the pilots or others, and landed somewhere before the fuel ran out. It has to be unlikely, I doubt there are many tarmac runways you could land a Boeing 777-200, without people noticing, and a dirt runway would have had to been prepared in advance.

Not necessarily. BAW38 (777-2xx) managed to crash land off piste (500m of grass) with all walking away from it (well one broken leg). Just need a reasonably clear, flat area and very competent pilot(s). If it ended up near the northern arc then it was probably hijacked (crew or passenger) but it seems unlikely that it wouldn't be noticed by someone. If it was suicide (or some failed hijack scenario) then more likely the southern arc which means it is in the water.

You need significantly less space to land (and facilities) if you don't plan to take off again (you can't, for example, put a 777 down on a surface with any loose material and expect to take off from it again without a high likelihood of ingesting enough crap to total the engines).

 

[Barking_Mad]

they have two houses. They don't spend much time at one house and the night before his wife went to their other house. This was told by the maid of the house. Nothing more in it afaik

 

[Barking_Mad]

Greek liner on way to check image found on digital globe. I looks interesting but nowhere near searches.

 

[kebabking]

Possibly the only hope the occupants are still alive is the possibility the plane was hijacked, by the pilots or others, and landed somewhere before the fuel ran out. It has to be unlikely, I doubt there are many tarmac runways you could land a Boeing 777-200, without people noticing, and a dirt runway would have had to been prepared in advance.

sadly, i'd think that if the aircraft has been hijacked, nicked and stashed at some arse-end-of-nowhere airfield, the chances of the 230+ witnesses to this minor infringement of just one or two laws still being amongst the living are somewhat remote. i think i'd prefer to believe they all died when the aircraft hit the water having run out of fuel...

 

[2hats]

sadly, i'd think that if the aircraft has been hijacked, nicked and stashed at some arse-end-of-nowhere airfield, the chances of the 230+ witnesses to this minor infringement of just one or two laws still being amongst the living are somewhat remote. i think i'd prefer to believe they all died when the aircraft hit the water having run out of fuel...

Speculation from several sources that the altitude changes recorded on primary radar (apparently Vietnamese radar saw the turn back as well as Malaysian) - up to 45kft then back down to 20-odd kft - may have been to subdue responses from the passenger cabin/cabin crew. Open the cabin bleed valves, passengers don masks (if awake), wait 20 minutes till that supply is pretty much exhausted, then zoom climb to 45kft (hard to ram secured flight deck door down if going uphill), maintain for x minutes and then descend. There won't be any witnesses, resistance or anyone attempting to make phone calls.

 

[maomao]

Speculation from several sources that the altitude changes recorded on primary radar (apparently Vietnamese radar saw the turn back as well as Malaysian) - up to 45kft then back down to 20-odd kft - may have been to subdue responses from the passenger cabin/cabin crew. Open the cabin bleed valves, passengers don masks (if awake), wait 20 minutes till that supply is pretty much exhausted, then zoom climb to 45kft (hard to ram secured flight deck door down if going uphill), maintain for x minutes and then descend. There won't be any witnesses, resistance or anyone attempting to make phone calls.

Is cockpit pressure separate from cabin pressure?

 

[Barking_Mad]

I'd thought that, a sudden ascent and descent would certainly make life difficult for everyone on board.

 

[existentialist]

Is cockpit pressure separate from cabin pressure?

No, otherwise the bulkhead would blow out. But the cockpit oxygen supply is separate, and presumably longer-lasting.

 

[2hats]

Is cockpit pressure separate from cabin pressure?

No. Flight crew have separate oxygen supply. Proper face masks. Supply significantly longer than that provided to passengers.

 

[maomao]

No, otherwise the bulkhead would blow out. But the cockpit oxygen supply is separate, and presumably longer-lasting.

No. Flight crew have separate oxygen supply. Proper face masks. Supply significantly longer than that provided to passengers.

Sorry, should have said oxygen supply not pressure.

 

[kebabking]

Speculation from several sources that the altitude changes recorded on primary radar (apparently Vietnamese radar saw the turn back as well as Malaysian) - up to 45kft then back down to 20-odd kft - may have been to subdue responses from the passenger cabin/cabin crew. Open the cabin bleed valves, passengers don masks (if awake), wait 20 minutes till that supply is pretty much exhausted, then zoom climb to 45kft (hard to ram secured flight deck door down if going uphill), maintain for x minutes and then descend. There won't be any witnesses, resistance or anyone attempting to make phone calls.

a form of distress signal?

if the aircraft had been hijacked, but with the crew still flying the aircraft though under the control of the hijackers, might the crew think that someone might notice the aircraft flying 10k+ higher than normal and think it a bit odd - or indeed just make it more visible, radar horizons etc..?

 

[2hats]

a form of distress signal?

if the aircraft had been hijacked, but with the crew still flying the aircraft though under the control of the hijackers, might the crew think that someone might notice the aircraft flying 10k+ higher than normal and think it a bit odd - or indeed just make it more visible, radar horizons etc..?

Doubtful. If the crew were flying under duress then someone is sitting next to them watching like a hawk. They are going to wonder WTF the crew are up to climbing and diving. More so than periodically turning transmitters on and off, dialling odd transponder codes, pushing the mic and just casually broadcasting what is going on in the cockpit to everyone in the vicinity.

The evidence seems to stack up towards either one or both of the pilots (optionally plus one cabin crew or airline mechanic who was reported to be on board) or just one or more very well trained hijackers amongst the passengers. Some very tidy, specific flying, lack of debris and lack of demands/claims of attribution are tending to cause authorities to lean towards the former.

 

[weltweit]

sadly, i'd think that if the aircraft has been hijacked, nicked and stashed at some arse-end-of-nowhere airfield, the chances of the 230+ witnesses to this minor infringement of just one or two laws still being amongst the living are somewhat remote. i think i'd prefer to believe they all died when the aircraft hit the water having run out of fuel...

My thinking was the passengers could be valuable hostages for a hijacker.

Speculation from several sources that the altitude changes recorded on primary radar (apparently Vietnamese radar saw the turn back as well as Malaysian) - up to 45kft then back down to 20-odd kft - may have been to subdue responses from the passenger cabin/cabin crew. Open the cabin bleed valves, passengers don masks (if awake), wait 20 minutes till that supply is pretty much exhausted, then zoom climb to 45kft (hard to ram secured flight deck door down if going uphill), maintain for x minutes and then descend. There won't be any witnesses, resistance or anyone attempting to make phone calls.

Hm, I suppose that could be an explanation, not as hopeful as my one, but all the same ..

 

[2hats]

My thinking was the passengers could be valuable hostages for a hijacker.

In which case one would expect to hear demands. Otherwise keeping 200+ people from otherwise distracting you would be a bit of a chore. Though who knows - we clearly are only being fed a fraction of the story - perhaps they are negotiating in secret with hijackers right now? But one would doubt it - such groups usually tick the box for maximum publicity and they get it in the age of the 'net.

 

[Supine]

If new satellite data for the Indian Ocean was uploaded to google maps a million people could join in the search

 

[xes]

http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/ this website is sort of claiming it's being attacked for "twoofing" but I suspect it's just trying to get more traffic. (I've never seen this site before, and I've been around the conspiracy block a few times) one of the things which give this away is this little statement....(the capitals help, I'm sure)

MAILS HEAVILY CENSORED. PHONES DISCONNECTED. WEB SITE SAVED ONLY BY A HUGELY READ ARTICLE AT BEFOREIT'S NEWS THAT I COULD EDIT TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THIS SITE VANISHED. BUT WHAT CAN I SAY? READ IT AND WEEP YOU NSA BASTARDS.

if you can't be bothered to click, it's basically claiming that WW3 is coming, and this is a forewarning, and the 20 scientists from Freescale Semiconductor are having what ever info sucked from them, by the USA, so that they can fight China, who are now (according to this blog of nuttery) the new main players in world domination.

So, the plane has been hijacked by the USA, to extract info from military weapons scientists, before starting WW3. You heard it here first

 

[2hats]

If new satellite data for the Indian Ocean was uploaded to google maps a million people could join in the search

For the Bay of Bengal, maybe, but if we are talking southern Indian Ocean then probably only if it had been imaged the best part of a week ago. Substantial and key items will almost certainly have long since sunk (if they didn't go straight in and stay under) and small floating debris will be widely dispersed. It's a vast, remote area to spot small, poorly resolved items in. For the same reason no one is going to go and chase up possible objects unless something really screams out.

Realistically it would need low flying aircraft (or perhaps IMINT assets) to spot convincing debris from the impact, then model that back (ocean currents) and direct SAR/ASW hydrophone equiped ships/ships with ASW helicopters and/or submarines to the area and trawl for the echo locators. But at the depths involved they would be very lucky to get a signal. It might take extensive and lengthy sonar surveys to find anything at the depths involved. Recall how long it took to locate the remains of Air France 447 (best part of two years). If they can narrow the area down doubtless they'll try dropping sonar buoys from the Orion/Poseidon SAR aircraft but it might be down to luck - the hydrophones could almost be on top of the locators at those depths (could be 4km or more in places) and still not pick up any signal (the locator beacon signals of the AF447 CVR/FDRs were never picked up, sidescan sonar surveys eventually located the wreckage).

 

[weltweit]

In which case one would expect to hear demands. Otherwise keeping 200+ people from otherwise distracting you would be a bit of a chore. Though who knows - we clearly are only being fed a fraction of the story - perhaps they are negotiating in secret with hijackers right now? But one would doubt it - such groups usually tick the box for maximum publicity and they get it in the age of the 'net.

I know it is unlikely a hijack with the occupants still alive, but if they were on an isle somewhere would the hijackers rush to make demands? and would we learn about it, except perhaps only long after the event?

As to it being a terrorist act and them wanting publicity, no one credibly claimed Pan Am 103 / Lockerbie.

And if pilot suicide, why so complicated? why not just nosedive into the mainland early in the flight? eta: I wonder if a pilot had life insurance, if so on what terms?

 

[existentialist]

And if pilot suicide, why so complicated? why not just nosedive into the mainland early in the flight? eta: I wonder if a pilot had life insurance, if so on what terms?

Non-issue, unless he'd just taken out a policy.

The idea that life insurance policies don't pay out on suicide is a myth, certainly nowadays, although the usual rules about non-disclosure of previous conditions do apply. If we're going to speculate along these lines, the pilot could have announced "Goodbye, cruel world!" over the airwaves and nosedived the plane into a mountain shouting "Take me now, Lord", and the insurers would still have paid out - he certainly wouldn't have had to go in for the antics that appear to have gone on.

 

[weltweit]

Non-issue, unless he'd just taken out a policy.

The idea that life insurance policies don't pay out on suicide is a myth, certainly nowadays, although the usual rules about non-disclosure of previous conditions do apply. If we're going to speculate along these lines, the pilot could have announced "Goodbye, cruel world!" over the airwaves and nosedived the plane into a mountain shouting "Take me now, Lord", and the insurers would still have paid out - he certainly wouldn't have had to go in for the antics that appear to have gone on.

Oh ok, perhaps not an issue then. I am finding it difficult, with the lack of info, not to speculate a bit.

 

[existentialist]

Oh ok, perhaps not an issue then. I am finding it difficult, with the lack of info, not to speculate a bit.

Speculate away! I'm just correcting a misapprehension along the way

 

[laptop]

wait 20 minutes till [cabin] supply is pretty much exhausted

12 minutes, say the denizens of pprune

 

[Spymaster]

The idea that life insurance policies don't pay out on suicide is a myth, certainly nowadays ...

Not quite. Most Life assurance policies won't pay out on suicide in the first year.

 

[maomao]

Oh ok, perhaps not an issue then. I am finding it difficult, with the lack of info, not to speculate a bit.

Nothing wrong with speculating, this is just a conversation, not the official investigation. As long as you make it reasonably clear that you're speculating.

 

[existentialist]

Not quite. Most Life assurance policies won't pay out on suicide in the first year.

True, and I did mean to add that, although quite a lot of insurance policies have exclusions for the first part of the policy's life, so the suicide thing isn't a special case.

 

[weltweit]

An article about some of the passengers here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26503469