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Luddites and Neo-Luddites.

But crucially, not the technology.

I noticed you edited the bit where you said "you only want to discuss with people who agree with you" out.

I only want to discuss this with people who have a basic knowledge of the issue, and if they don't are prepared to do the necessary research to be able to join in the discussion without asking utterly inane fucking stupid questions like:

Where do you draw the line though? What is the criteria used to determine if the technology is causing a bad influence. If its put as making people's jobs redundant, taking that it logical extreme, we should have never bothered going past subsistence farming.

Which should've been a dead giveaway really, but I'm more charitable than butchers, I'm a lot newer here than he is so perhaps I'm still a bit soft. But now we've gone beyond that, please find somewhere else to be stupid rather than here.
 
I noticed you edited the bit where you said "you only want to discuss with people who agree with you" out.

I only want to discuss this with people who have a basic knowledge of the issue, and if they don't are prepared to do the necessary research to be able to join in the discussion without asking utterly inane fucking stupid questions like:



Which should've been a dead giveaway really, but I'm more charitable than butchers, I'm a lot newer here than he is so perhaps I'm still a bit soft. But now we've gone beyond that, please find somewhere else to be stupid rather than here.

Why are you still responding to me?
 
Alan Brooke has a new website here.

He's also being interviewed for Radio 4's Looking for Luddites, tomorrow at 8pm, and for the BBC2 series Town Tuesday at 8pm where they're doing Huddersfield this week.

PS could someone with a UKNova account or something or who can record these things make sure they get recorded and archived? You'd be doing a big favour.
 
Here ya go. If you missed it last night this episode of Town features a brief interview with Alan Brooke and a little segment on Luddites. BBC iPlayer link here



and from Radio 4 yesterday, Looking for Luddites. Bit more detailed this, contains interviews with Bob Crow, Kevin Binfield, Katrina Navickas and Alan Brooke, will do a write up of my thoughts a bit later.
 
Here ya go. If you missed it last night this episode of Town features a brief interview with Alan Brooke and a little segment on Luddites. BBC iPlayer link here



and from Radio 4 yesterday, Looking for Luddites. Bit more detailed this, contains interviews with Bob Crow, Kevin Binfield, Katrina Navickas and Alan Brooke, will do a write up of my thoughts a bit later.

I totally expected you to turn up on that programme!!
 
Well I've utterly failed to cohesively join Luddite themes with a bunch of stuff about IT, open-source software and open-source hardware like I hoped to do much earlier in this thread.

So instead have fun with this Suzanne Moore article about how 'we'll soon all be working for free in the digital economy'. Its the usual mix of some rather interesting and worrying points and a some sentences which I shall simply describe as hilarious bollocks, enjoy!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/05/digital-economy-work-for-free

The implosion of the middle class produces instability. We cannot all be freelancers for ever. Freelance work, like interning, is fine if you have the funds to manage without a regular income. That is, if you are already wealthy. But the digital economy operates as a kind of sophisticated X Factor. Someone will make it, sure. For more than 15 seconds even, maybe. But most won't. This is why Lanier says the internet may destroy the middle classes, the people who can't outspend the elite. And without that middle group, we cannot maintain a democracy.


The creative industries, first music and now journalism, saw these changes coming too late. My children have been brought up in a world where they have to compete with those who will work for free. It is only a matter of time until we will all be asked to do the same. And I refuse.
For what is being eroded is not only actual wages but also the very idea that work must be paid for. Huge profits are being made from these so-called opportunities for our youth. But they are, in fact, the exploitation of insecurity. This is not about being anti-technology. It is about being pro-human. Technology is here and it's often great. But we must find a sustainable way of using it so that the stuff we do or make is paid for in living and not virtual wages.
 
Well I was tired when I posted that and I'm still waking up now so I may be full of shit, but I'll have a stab anyway.

I suppose I was pissed off that she goes on about the middle classes as if they deserve special protection, and makes no comparison to all the fostering of insecurities and wage-eroding stuff that has gone before and affected other groups.

Taking the sensible and important points about exploitation and insecurity and stretching them to some bizarre scenerio where people are somehow always expected to work for free also seemed absurd to me. When harping on about the X Factor and the idea that most wont make a living wage out of the youtube dream, she is missing out the fact that when it comes to many creative jobs, this is hardly a new phenomenon. Long before the internet there were no shortage of starving musicians, actors, writers, etc, the system under which she successfully built a career hardly offered security and a good chance of success to most would-be participants.

This latter point leads me to some dodgy ground that I cannot pretend does not exist when it comes to concepts surrounding competition in a certain sector. The use of greater competition by capitalist forces to erode wages & job security is obvious and to be opposed. Bu on the other hand greater competition also suggests that there is actually greater opportunity for more people to get into the game, that the barriers to entry are lower, and I cannot pretend that is simply a bad or unmentionable thing just because it leads to trouble for those who were lucky or privileged enough to get into the game when the barriers were higher.

When comparing the phenomenon she describes to much earlier assaults on workers due to tecnological change, I am also struck by another difference. Workers making physical stuff often suffered a hefty decline in the enjoyability, variation and freedom of their job as a result of technology, reduced to fleshy extensions of the machine. But in some ways what is happening with the creative world as a result of the internet is quite the opposite - those who do make it may have more freedom, with self-publishing offering an escape from some of the traditional controllers of their work (editors, direct advertising concerns etc). I wont push this point too far though, there are features going in the opposite direction, eg in 'the old days' you might be able to get paid good money to make something special that only had a limited audience, if the org you worked for thought it was still worth it in some way, whereas in the new world there is more pressure on every piece to deliver sufficient eyeballs.

None of these points are supposed to neuter her other points about living wages and security, and even if my criticisms are invalid or of little relevance I still thought it worth posting the article here because it is quite fascinating to see a modern form of technology-induced change and insecurity posing a threat to groups that were previously rather immune to such horrors. It is not surprising if they try to paint this stuff as a new phenomenon worthy of special attention, stuff always seems more important when it affects you, but I'll be unable to resist making some cynical noises about it. Especially when they try to rally others of their class to the cause by raising future spectres. If they are that bothered about the slippery slope then perhaps they should have protested more when it was affecting those who were targets of this phenomenon much earlier, workers with specialised or unspecialised skills which did not afford them an especially loud voice with which to protest and struggle. Workers who were told to suck it up, to embrace the change no matter how corrosive, to get with the times. I will still have sympathy for those previously protected who now find themselves no longer immune to such onslaught, but I will be unable to utterly suppress a wry smile on occasions that the blind eyes they turned in the past have come back to haunt them.
 
I suppose I also have slightly more mixed feelings about the threat to the creative industries because of how relatively recently they became industries in the first place. The idea that many of the forms of creativity people have made a career out of were previously more firmly routed in societies in a folky way, where there were still some people doing it for a living but where the masses also participated as far more than an audience, doing this stuff not for work but for pleasure, socialising and communication. So I cannot mourn the return of that.
 
many of the forms of creativity people have made a career out of were previously more firmly routed in societies in a folky way, where there were still some people doing it for a living but where the masses also participated as far more than an audience, doing this stuff not for work but for pleasure, socialising and communication.

That's wonderful for folky pursuits. But when journalism turns into a folky pursuit, we get David Icke.

And, for that matter, things like orchestras depend on professionalisation. And I like orchestras, as well as the pub gig I was at last night.
 
Well I am able to discuss that aspect with a happy face because I believe we will have both. States, economies and businesses still need paid professional journalists and 'opinon formers'. The arts will still have patrons, etc etc.

The internet changing expectations of what should be available for free certainly has a number of impacts. But I dont see quite how the scenario that Suzanne Moore conjures up is the inevitable end-game. Even for the most talked about fronts, music publishers and newspapers, predictions of their utter doom have not come to fruition.
 
Or to look at it from another angle, she is quite right to point out the exploitation of youngsters just entering 'the market', who are increasingly asked to do plenty for less or nothing. But certainly when it comes to the creative industries I tend to see this as an increased squeeze rather than a brand new phenomenon. And its not at all clear the extent of the impact this will have on jobs in the sector as a whole, g as these workers age and require real income. Clearly part of my problem with her article is that while both are terrible, there is a difference between lower wages and less security, and no wages at all. While the latter is desirable to sections of capitalism, even if you have a perpetual supply of fresh new slaves to exploit I do not see how this model is sustainable because it buggers the cycle where wages are recycled via consumption. Given that things have arguably already been propped up first by getting more members of households to do paid work, and then by encouraging household debt and house price bubbles to sustain consumption, I dont know how far they can continue to push stuff without breakdown.
 
Thanks Elbows.

Seems the same old phenominom of instability deriving from the inherent paradoxical nature of the system. No one cares about the pin makers. They're the underclass / precariate today. Middle class knowledge workers are now subject to the continual canabilisation and evolution. Of course this isn't a problem with the technology persay. (which has obviously brought vast benefits with respect to sharing information.) Just the same old capilistic forces being played out in new globe spanning arinas.

hm I'll just go back to reading I think.
 
Always worth remembering how historically the best paid and most highly skilled workers were the ones who formed the bedrock of resistance to technological unemployment.


Because after years of training the Luddite Weavers saw that the de-skilling of workers is the biggest threat to society and wage earning potential and how any increases in profit would not be forthcoming to the producers of any such profit.
The Levellers, Diggers and Luddites were all skilled intelligent people who also valued the commonality of the people as a shield against the constant onslaught of the capitalists.
 
http://www.borderlands.net.au/vol11no2_2012/linebaugh_horizon.pdf

A new article by Peter Linebaugh that's to do with the Luddites.

And here's a review of Peter Linebaugh's new booklet Queen Mab and Ned Ledd by Alan Brooke. http://www.pmpress.org/content/article.php?story=nedluddareview

This looks quite good. One of the criticisms of The Making of the English Working Class is that it doesn't take into account much of what was going on internationally, how the development of the working class as a coherent body correlates and is influenced by what was going on in the colonies, with slavery, with other developments throughout Europe at the same time. This looks like something that's edging in that direction.

Uploaded the pamphlet here.

And there is an interview covering the same ground here (audio).
 
In passing: today in 1830 the first machines were broken in the Swing Riots.


Despite all the reforms and laws passed since, we now today as workers are still confronted by zero hours contracts, health and safety at work being taken apart, more hours being worked, less benefits, less pensions, less security.
Yet the trade unions and labour movements are broken by the onslaught of capitalism and media driving wedges through the heart of the workers by letting them all think they are somehow no longer defined by class.
The media portrays the working class erroneously by letting jeremy kyle demonise those at the bottom by rolling out a few unwashed and unloved and saying 'this is the working class are you really as base as this'. Natural reaction causes folk to distance themselves and kid themselves that those at the top see them as equal.

All these people who fought and died to further the workers cause over the years must lie in their graves and weep that we lost it all because of self greed, intolerance and ignorance.
 
Always worth remembering how historically the best paid and most highly skilled workers were the ones who formed the bedrock of resistance to technological unemployment...

Isn't this a bit of a generalisation? What about the struggles in the car industry against the introduction of robots and computers in the 1970s and 1980s? This involved assembly-line workers, who were often 'semi-skilled' migrant labour: Southern Italians at FIAT in Turin, Commonwealth migrants in the UK, African Americans from the Southern States of the US in Detroit, Greeks, Italians and Turks in Germany etc. Presumably some skilled engineers, technicians and computer programmers were quite happy to get well paid to develop and implement the technology that made workers in the Fordist car industry redundant. Describing skilled workers as the bedrock of Luddism seems to be as reductivist as dismissing them as labour aristocracy.
 
Thinking about it, the whole crisis from the late 60s onwards has been related to the refusal of productivity deals by semi-skilled mass workers, and a productivity deal is always a technological change even if its crudest form is to just speed up the line.
 
Isn't this a bit of a generalisation? What about the struggles in the car industry against the introduction of robots and computers in the 1970s and 1980s? This involved assembly-line workers, who were often 'semi-skilled' migrant labour: Southern Italians at FIAT in Turin, Commonwealth migrants in the UK, African Americans from the Southern States of the US in Detroit, Greeks, Italians and Turks in Germany etc. Presumably some skilled engineers, technicians and computer programmers were quite happy to get well paid to develop and implement the technology that made workers in the Fordist car industry redundant. Describing skilled workers as the bedrock of Luddism seems to be as reductivist as dismissing them as labour aristocracy.

It is a generalisation yeah i see your point, but I'm not trying to suggest semi-skilled workers aren't victim to these changes too, and those examples are illustrative of how this effects all workers not just the skilled artisans. I mention it because there's a misconception that the Luddites were somehow unskilled workers who's jobs were arcane, the term almost implies some yokel doing some obsolete job, when in actual fact they were highly skilled workers with a prestigious position, I don't know if "labour aristocracy" is right but they were at the top end of the British textiles trades in their own times. Consider how in the 1790's it was mainly artisan workers like Luddites (croppers, stockingers etc) who lost out the most by the introduction of the factory system, whereas comparatively more old-fashioned and less skilled workers like handloom weavers managed to come out of that experience relatively unscathed, at least until the 1830's (by which time croppers and stockingers were long gone as trades).

What I'm getting at is there's an economic pressure to deskill the highly-skilled workers over semi-skilled mass labour. Firstly because highly-skilled workers are more expensive to pay than semi-skilled ones. There's an extra incentive on the part of employers to want to deskill those jobs first, because of the cost of using that kind of labour. It's very expensive to employ highly trained and skilled technicians so replacing that element is a priority. Also there's another incentive to go after the highly-skilled technical workers because highly-skilled workers by virtue of the bosses reliance on their skills have extra bargaining power. They can't be replaced as easily as semi-skilled workers, and if they decide to go on strike they can wield a lot more power. Semi-skilled labour is easier to replace and it's easier to implement labour discipline on them than it is the highly-skilled, who have a degree of autonomy. That's another incentive that explains why it's often the highly-skilled and highly-paid who end up the victims of this process first.

I mention it because a big part of why the Luddites were so violently resisting wasn't just about their jobs, but because their jobs were highly-skilled and carried a lot of status in the community. They didn't just lose a job, they lost their status with it, and I think understanding that is crucial to understanding why the Luddites responded so violently.
 
This is why deskilling as a capital/management strategy is so key to the technical organisation of work and to the battles that have been going on since the luddites - and were so important in the time of the mass worker.
 
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