Losing benefit if you're an addict or obese

[treelover]

I've just read this. I am lost for words. Nobody sets out to be an addict nor to be clinically obese. I can see some merit in pushing people towards treatment. I can see none in forcing treatment nor in imposing financial penalties for those not taking treatment.

Aren't they already doing this with some drug addicts?, I think New Labour(Purnell) first floated this,

good way to divert the flak away from tax evasion though.

 

[treelover]

I don't think that "medical programs" are actually very likely to be successful at this. If you think about the cycle of change, one of the key things is that people have to be ready to change (man).

Maybe providing more, free or subsidised exercise facilities, examining the role that big food plays in obesity, looking at whether criminalising drugs is really the best way to go, putting more money into drug and alcohol treatment services could work. But that all sounds a bit too socialist and worst of all might actually achieve results, leaving the government without anybody to demonise.

Many disabled people who live sedentary lives due to their condition are getting Diabetes, becoming clinically obese, afaik, there is no support or funding, to say, provide travel/care to go swimming, etc. Would these people be affected, and how long before it would be extended, people with M.E must have CBT, Graded Exercise, etc or lose benefits?

 

[treelover]

In Portugal drug addiction was de-criminalised and treatment offered. That has lead to a decrease in addiction problems and in drug use. I have very limited experience of addiction but those I know who have been addicts say that until they were ready to change nothing helped.

I suspect that this might be the case with obesity. If, that is, it was as simple as food addiction.

This seems to be a blatant attempt at seeing what the people will tolerate before deciding to impose something "but at least it isn't ad bad as it could be"

Classic 'kiteflying', something New Labour were past masters of

stinks of Lynton Crosby

 

[spanglechick]

Like walking 200 yards to the shop instead of driving. That's free.

and with those 40 kcals you burn off doing that, how much weight do you think you'll lose?

Sorry but that's BS. There is no medical condition or medication that makes your arm uncontrollably shove food down your throat.

Have you thought of sharing your insight on this matter with the highly trained and qualified doctors who deal with endocrinology (including medical issues that mean some people constantly experience hunger) - or those psychiatrists and psychologists who try to manage eating disorders, including Binge Eating Disorder, Compulsive Overeating, Bulimia etc...

You know, in all these years I never had you down as an arrogant, ignorant, shite-spewing twat. But it turns out that you are one, after all.

 

[likesfish]

Aren't they already doing this with some drug addicts?, I think New Labour(Purnell) first floated this,

good way to divert the flak away from tax evasion though.

Those are drug treatment orders get nicked get the option of atend treatment with failure to engage leading to threat of jail works in some cases. in others just delays the jailing.
Two days before court is too late to address your drug use especailly when people have been pushing you to attend interviews etc for the last 6 months

 

[likesfish]

it might work if cbt/ counselling exercise classes physios dieticans etc etc etc were actually avilable but if your lucky you might get a support plan written by an unqualified support worker or more likely a commission only wanker form smackavulnerableprolewhiletheyaredown.com a subsidry of g4s

 

[treelover]

This. Obscene and fundamentally dangerous shit. So flawed as to be impractical, no evidence-base beyond (I assume) the rantings of some focus group.

"Cameron will say: “I have asked Professor Dame Carol Black to undertake a rapid review into how best to support those suffering from long-term yet treatable conditions."

"How to best support"? Mendacious fraud cunt

Dame Carol Black, Browns' and then Cameron's tame academic who provided the academic reports which led to the 'fit note', etc.

 

[treelover]

Its not going to happen, so see this for what it is, a Tory election gaff & a gift for Labour. I guess even the squeezed middle are getting pissed off with this continuous Tory 'let off the rich & fuck the poor' shit.

Yes it will, the majority of Gov't 'kite flying', fit notes, sanctions, all have come to pass.

 

[treelover]

The problem is that the thrust of neoliberalism in the context of health is all about medicalising such issues so that they can be made a profit from. The neolibs won't admit that these problems are more social than medical because social problems are harder to treat, and therefore harder to generate a profit from.
Basically, the cunts are monetising our misery.

Dame Pauline Black, who is to head up this 'review' is a director of Nuffield Trust, so no conflict of interest there.

 

[spanglechick]

it might work if cbt/ counselling exercise classes physios dieticans etc etc etc were actually avilable but if your lucky you might get a support plan written by an unqualified support worker or more likely a commission only wanker form smackavulnerableprolewhiletheyaredown.com a subsidry of g4s

thing is, even when people are given access to, say, eating disorder clinicians etc, and engage with therapies, there is a very poor long-term success rate.

 

[treelover]

Why does everybody see Labour as exactly the same as they were when they were previously in government? What people miss, I think is that if Labour had come in with more left wing policies in the 2005 election as they should have done to avoid so much damage in the predicted 2008 crash they would have lost that election, the Tories would have got in, made as bigger mess of it as Labour did & we would have been exactly where we are now. I think its possible that a change could be on the horizon & that change is more likely to happen with Labour, because all the Tories offer is more of what we have now.

"We will be tougher on welfare than the Tories", Shadow Works and Pensions Secretary, Rachel Reeves, 2014

 

[likesfish]

Exactly
But that obviously because they wont help themselves

Rather than they cant and are understanding on how to change peoples behavior is slightly better than homopathy but not by much

 

[treelover]

Like walking 200 yards to the shop instead of driving. That's free.

Plenty of the people Cameron is targeting will never have had a car...

 

[treelover]

What shop? The local one stop, known for its range of high quality fresh foods? We have structural problems in our country around this kind of thing.

And I shudder to think what kind of treatment programs A4E and others will put on. I doubt reputable organisations would touch this with a bargepole.

Charities have robustly challenged this kite flying on the media

which makes a change from the NL days when they were very passive indeed.

 

[treelover]

it might work if cbt/ counselling exercise classes physios dieticans etc etc etc were actually avilable but if your lucky you might get a support plan written by an unqualified support worker or more likely a commission only wanker form smackavulnerableprolewhiletheyaredown.com a subsidry of g4s

going to use that

 

[ViolentPanda]

I was going to go with a full mixed grill joke....but won't bother now.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I struggled with whether to include "African elephant chop", but didn't want to come over as an anti-stoutist .

 

[toggle]

Many disabled people who live sedentary lives due to their condition are getting Diabetes, becoming clinically obese, afaik, there is no support or funding, to say, provide travel/care to go swimming, etc. Would these people be affected, and how long before it would be extended, people with M.E must have CBT, Graded Exercise, etc or lose benefits?

the biggest concern isn't forcing people into treatments that they may not be ready for, that don't address underlying problems or may just be inapropriate, but also what happens when the chosen treatments are ineffective. we already see patients with fatigue being told that they are choosing the 'sick role' (that's the term used isn't it ViolentPanda ?) if they don't respond to programs of graded exercise therapy that have low success rates in real use rather than highly selected study cohorts and can make matters worse for many patients. i'd have genuine concerns about the long term future plans for people who could be deemed guilty of not getting better under such a system.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Your patronising and judgemental attitude is really vile to read.

His pronouncements are also heavily larded (pardon the pun!) with bullshit.Anyone consistently eating 3x the RDA of calories would be dead very quickly.
The fact is that it's only necessary for your inputs to exceed your outputs by a hundred calories a day or so, in order to have noticeable weight gain over the course of a year, but it's easier to stigmatise obese people than to open your mind and challenge your prejudices.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Often obesity and over eating is a psychological compulsion, an attempt to manage difficult emotions.

I'm sure that wouldbe doesn't believe psychological issues are relevant, even though they're often as physically-disabling as a physical disability.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not taken in by anything andysays , I'm saying wait & see. Things go in cycles, the Thatcher years are in their final death throws, possibly.

In terms of leverage, Thatcherism many indeed be in its' death throes, but the neoliberalist agenda it facilitated is still going strong.

Its possible things could change, new politicians come along all the time as the old ones retire. No small new party is going to be electable, the main players will always be Labour & Tory, the left wingers who actually think they can make a difference will have to join Labour if they want to get into Parliment, thats how it's always worked. One needs to remain optimistic or there is no hope at all, this is not being 'taken in', I remain cynical but I'm failing to see how 'austerity'(for the working classes that is) can continue because it does not work.

Since when has lack of utility meant politicians stop using a policy? All that matters to the politicians (regardless of party allegiance) is whether or not they get elected. After that, as we've been taught only too well, all bets (and manifesto pledges) are off.

 

[likesfish]

See goverment drug policy

 

[ViolentPanda]

the biggest concern isn't forcing people into treatments that they may not be ready for, that don't address underlying problems or may just be inapropriate, but also what happens when the chosen treatments are ineffective. we already see patients with fatigue being told that they are choosing the 'sick role' (that's the term used isn't it ViolentPanda ?) if they don't respond to programs of graded exercise therapy that have low success rates in real use rather than highly selected study cohorts and can make matters worse for many patients. i'd have genuine concerns about the long term future plans for people who could be deemed guilty of not getting better under such a system.

Yep, the "sick role", an analysis favoured by that old friend of long-term sick and disabled people, Sir Mansel " I give rimjobs to the medical insurance industry" Aylward, and first conceived nearly a century ago by a sociologist called Talcott Parsons. It's an insidious label to attribute to a person, because functionally it's impossible to refute - any denial of assumption of the sick role by the individual is met with "it's to your benefit to say that, just as it's to your benefit to take on the sick role". The only thing it's good for is denying people benefits or the fruits of their medical insurance.

 

[toggle]

Yep, the "sick role", an analysis favoured by that old friend of long-term sick and disabled people, Sir Mansel " I give rimjobs to the medical insurance industry" Aylward, and first conceived nearly a century ago by a sociologist called Talcott Parsons. It's an insidious label to attribute to a person, because functionally it's impossible to refute - any denial of assumption of the sick role by the individual is met with "it's to your benefit to say that, just as it's to your benefit to take on the sick role". The only thing it's good for is denying people benefits or the fruits of their medical insurance.

it's also a good one for practitioners who want to pretend that their chosen theraputic approach is the only possible solution, so the patient can be blamed for the practitioner's failure to accept multimodal approaches and effectively denies access to something that might actually work

 

[ViolentPanda]

it's also a good one for practitioners who want to pretend that their chosen theraputic approach is the only possible solution, so the patient can be blamed for the practitioner's failure to accept multimodal approaches and effectively denies access to something that might actually work

So I've noticed. About 10 years ago my then GP wanted to send me to a local "specialist centre" for treatment. I asked her to hold off a referral until I could assemble and print off an "executive summary" of the basis of the clinic's treatment program. She agreed.
When I presented her with the 5 printed sides of A4 she read through it, handed it back to me and said "I won't be referring anyone there!". Turns out that all the successful research they'd cited in the clinic's publicity material was *slightly* edited from the reality of the small-scale poorly-controlled trials and back-scratching research reviews from other researchers in the same field.

 

[treelover]

Thinking about this, its to save money, refuse to take up treatment, sanction, so more money for the treasury and tax cuts for their friends..

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Quitting drugs and alcohol is often pretty complex too.

I know more large people who have slimmed than alcoholics who have managed to get clean... Not that this is a weeing contest.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I know more large people who have slimmed than alcoholics who have managed to get clean... Not that this is a weeing contest.

presumably a weeing contest would be won by the alcoholics

 

[tufty79]

Both groups would be beaten by the diabetics.

 

[equationgirl]

I know more large people who have slimmed than alcoholics who have managed to get clean... Not that this is a weeing contest.

Losing weight is one thing. Keeping it off is quite another.

 

[laptop]

Often obesity and over eating is a psychological compulsion, an attempt to manage difficult emotions.

And there are conditions that make sufferers gain more weight for the same amount of food intake. Silly.