Livingstone sabotages Chavez London rally
- Thread starter justuname
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nightbreed
Im Bored
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
schmoo said:
Heh, I see you here and over at PP.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Macullam said:
I heard Tariq Ali on the radio this am and I thought he was quite clear - to paraphrase: "Chavez is working within the bounds of (left) social democracy and is implementing reforms similar to those of Labour post-1945. In doing so he is challenging the neo-liberal consensus and particularly the alignment of people like Blair and New Labour with the USA. Chavez reforms are of real benefit to the people of Venezuela.".
In a situation in which Chavez is taking this path, the first and overwhelming task of socialists of all shades is to defend him and his government and people. This has been taken forward by the Hands off Venezuela campaign, which for all the critics of the Grantite leadership is something they have taken forward in a genuinely united front way - I have heard no criticism that they have bureaucratically led the campaign and I think it is a real attempt to involve everyone in solidarity. Good on them for sustaining this campaign. HoV should be strongly supported. [the opposite of course applies to anything the misnamed Socialist Action have initiated in an attempt to bypass HoV].
The second task of marxist socialists is to enter into dialogue with Chavez and his supporters to look at the limits on reforms and the dangers of counter-revolution. This should be undertaken in a comradely way, especially as we in the UK can hardly speak from a position of strength, with the most suppine neo-liberal pro-USA government in Europe, if not the world, and a divided and often ineffective left. At least Chavez has won elections and mobilised his support! So we should get off our high horse and have a genuine dialogue where we seek to learn too. Our commitment should be to mobilise 100% to defend the Chavez reforms and oppose our own government's undermining of the path being taken in Venezuela.
The problem with sectarians grouplets like the AWL and SP is that they prefer to stand on the sidelines, chirupping criticisms, rather than get involved in the real struggle.
and what is the the 'task' for non-marxists who care about whats happening in the world. Ffs, no wonder P/P is declining, its now largely a conversation between a few 19th c left activists, open it up for gods sake!
The second task of marxist socialists is to enter into dialogue with Chavez and his supporters to look at the limits on reforms and the dangers of counter-revolution
The second task of marxist socialists is to enter into dialogue with Chavez and his supporters to look at the limits on reforms and the dangers of counter-revolution
it would have been more jam-packed than the 800 places they filled yesterday, that's for sure. There were more people outside the venue than went in yesterday, I reckon. Bet he could have filled Traf Square if Ken & co had cared to make his visit that accessible to us little people.treelover said:
Edit to say: He addressed a meeting of 5000 in Vienna:http://www.handsoffvenezuela.org/
The problem with sectarians grouplets like the AWL and SP is that they prefer to stand on the sidelines, chirupping criticisms, rather than get involved in the real struggle.[/QUOTE]
Sectarian = anyone who disagrees with SWP/Respect.
far from standing on the sidelines the CWI are active in Venezuela we make no grandiose claims about our influence at this time. or personal relations with Chavez.
Hundreds of thousands march in Caracas http://www.socialistworld.net/
International workers day celebrated with a lot of enthusiasm.
Celso Calfullan, Caracas, Venezuela
Hundreds of thousands workers came out onto the streets of Caracas for Mayday demonstrations. The streets were a sea of red T-shirts. This demonstrates that the regime headed by Hugo Chavez can still count on an enormous mobilising power with its ability to attract workers and wider sections of society.
The atmosphere was terrific. This was an inspiring and uplifting march with demonstrators dancing to the rhythm of the salsa and drum bands. As someone commented: "This is good for the soul."
The main slogans on the demonstration were directed against imperialism, Bush and their flunkeys in Latin America. The demands of the marchers called for the unity of the oppressed people in Latin America. The members of the CWI in Venezuela marched in a joint delegation with the health care workers and with our comrades of the Sirtrasalud trade union in the Simon Bolivar hospital in Caracas.
The sun was beating down on the demonstrators but nothing was to be allowed to interfere with the unshakeable desire of the workers for a free and dignified life in this country, with their readiness to take control of society. The Mayday demonstration was a positive march in defence of workers rights, in defence of liberty, socialism and against imperialism.
It is important to explain the content of the Mayday march because the CTV, the Confederation of Venezuelan workers, had also called for a demonstration on the first of May. The CTV is the old trade union confederation, a pro-bosses and pro-imperialist trade union confederation responsible, in part, for the bosses lock-out between December 2002 and January 2003. The central slogan on this march was a call "for the respect of the right to life". A very laudable cause but we have to point out that those primarily responsible for the absence of this right are the Venezuelan employers who have driven the majority of the population in poverty and who are now very cynically attempting to use the issue of security and crime as the central pillar of the pro-imperialist opposition campaign.
It was sufficient to look at the social composition of this alternative Mayday march to be sure of the class content of the demonstration. The "trade union" bureaucracy of the old CTV were joined by the students of the central university in Caracas, who come from more affluent families and who look forward to their entrance into the professional "classes". This demonstration expressed the fear of some sections of the middle class that they might lose their privileges in society.
Unfortunately these type of confused situations can flourish because of the contradictory character of the development of the Venezuelan revolutionary process. Part of the leadership and indeed part of the Venezuelan government is consciously supporting measures against the working class, measures which confuse wider layers of the working class as to what is really happening in Venezuela.
One example of this is what is happening with the cooperative movement. The cooperatives are being used by the private sector and by the government as a tool to deregulate the labour market. "This is pure neo-liberalism. It should not be possible to create cooperatives to destroy the trade unions" as Orlando Chirino, national coordinator of the UNT, the new trade union confederation supportive of the Chavez government, says.
Sadly the employers in this country are still at liberty to continue their violation of workers’ rights. When workers mobilise against these practices they are being accused by the new bureaucracy of being counter revolutionaries and people who play the game of the opposition. This happens because the workers want to stop the bosses who are the worst conspirators in the country.
One cannot deny the obvious. About one million workers are locked in a struggle today with the Venezuelan employers who are unscrupulously attacking their most basic rights. Add to that the struggle in the countryside. The poor peasantry are struggling against the big landholders who in turn started to use death squads against the leaders of the land movement. Everyone knows this and still the landowners can continue to negotiate with the government with total impunity.
The workers are locked into a confrontation with the pro-coup employers and the bureaucrats of the fourth republic who have taken up places inside the government. The latter use their positions to play ball with their old allies amongst the ruling class.
This is why the workers have come out in their hundreds of thousands on May Day this year. They will lead the struggle for genuine socialism.
Sectarian = anyone who disagrees with SWP/Respect.
far from standing on the sidelines the CWI are active in Venezuela we make no grandiose claims about our influence at this time. or personal relations with Chavez.
Hundreds of thousands march in Caracas http://www.socialistworld.net/
International workers day celebrated with a lot of enthusiasm.
Celso Calfullan, Caracas, Venezuela
Hundreds of thousands workers came out onto the streets of Caracas for Mayday demonstrations. The streets were a sea of red T-shirts. This demonstrates that the regime headed by Hugo Chavez can still count on an enormous mobilising power with its ability to attract workers and wider sections of society.
The atmosphere was terrific. This was an inspiring and uplifting march with demonstrators dancing to the rhythm of the salsa and drum bands. As someone commented: "This is good for the soul."
The main slogans on the demonstration were directed against imperialism, Bush and their flunkeys in Latin America. The demands of the marchers called for the unity of the oppressed people in Latin America. The members of the CWI in Venezuela marched in a joint delegation with the health care workers and with our comrades of the Sirtrasalud trade union in the Simon Bolivar hospital in Caracas.
The sun was beating down on the demonstrators but nothing was to be allowed to interfere with the unshakeable desire of the workers for a free and dignified life in this country, with their readiness to take control of society. The Mayday demonstration was a positive march in defence of workers rights, in defence of liberty, socialism and against imperialism.
It is important to explain the content of the Mayday march because the CTV, the Confederation of Venezuelan workers, had also called for a demonstration on the first of May. The CTV is the old trade union confederation, a pro-bosses and pro-imperialist trade union confederation responsible, in part, for the bosses lock-out between December 2002 and January 2003. The central slogan on this march was a call "for the respect of the right to life". A very laudable cause but we have to point out that those primarily responsible for the absence of this right are the Venezuelan employers who have driven the majority of the population in poverty and who are now very cynically attempting to use the issue of security and crime as the central pillar of the pro-imperialist opposition campaign.
It was sufficient to look at the social composition of this alternative Mayday march to be sure of the class content of the demonstration. The "trade union" bureaucracy of the old CTV were joined by the students of the central university in Caracas, who come from more affluent families and who look forward to their entrance into the professional "classes". This demonstration expressed the fear of some sections of the middle class that they might lose their privileges in society.
Unfortunately these type of confused situations can flourish because of the contradictory character of the development of the Venezuelan revolutionary process. Part of the leadership and indeed part of the Venezuelan government is consciously supporting measures against the working class, measures which confuse wider layers of the working class as to what is really happening in Venezuela.
One example of this is what is happening with the cooperative movement. The cooperatives are being used by the private sector and by the government as a tool to deregulate the labour market. "This is pure neo-liberalism. It should not be possible to create cooperatives to destroy the trade unions" as Orlando Chirino, national coordinator of the UNT, the new trade union confederation supportive of the Chavez government, says.
Sadly the employers in this country are still at liberty to continue their violation of workers’ rights. When workers mobilise against these practices they are being accused by the new bureaucracy of being counter revolutionaries and people who play the game of the opposition. This happens because the workers want to stop the bosses who are the worst conspirators in the country.
One cannot deny the obvious. About one million workers are locked in a struggle today with the Venezuelan employers who are unscrupulously attacking their most basic rights. Add to that the struggle in the countryside. The poor peasantry are struggling against the big landholders who in turn started to use death squads against the leaders of the land movement. Everyone knows this and still the landowners can continue to negotiate with the government with total impunity.
The workers are locked into a confrontation with the pro-coup employers and the bureaucrats of the fourth republic who have taken up places inside the government. The latter use their positions to play ball with their old allies amongst the ruling class.
This is why the workers have come out in their hundreds of thousands on May Day this year. They will lead the struggle for genuine socialism.
JHE said:
HOV In Defense of marxism will probably carry a report http://www.marxist.com/ usually posted after 5pm Expect the usual rah rah uncritical cheerleading.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Could the venom for "Hands of Venezuela" from the SP be related to the fact that it is led by an organisation that is a split away from the SP/Militant sect.
They are a little bit uncritical of Chavez, but then so are the SP about the Liverpool council in the 80s - what do SP and Chavez have in common? Both reformists, both believe in a revolution from the top rather than workers control.
You can read Denis MacShane on Chavez here:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk...e/2006/05/chavez_is_populist_not_a_socia.html
Many will know MacShane as the man who used to help co-ordinate British support for the dirty war in Colombia.
He refers to Chavez as a supporter of Saddam Hussein, in New Labour doublespeak this means an opponent of the war, and finally bemoans that he has refused to "modernise", in New Labour doublespeak this means a refusal to embrace neo-liberal reforms that do not benefit the majority of the people.
I think it is quite important to (in a non-sectarian) way be quite critical of Chavez, because he has now for many on the left become the alternative to the third way.
As an environmentalist, I am also gravely concerned about Chavez's environmental record, his socialism in one country relies on fossil fuels as it's basis, which has led to him supporting a pipeline that will destroy sections of the amazon.
They are a little bit uncritical of Chavez, but then so are the SP about the Liverpool council in the 80s - what do SP and Chavez have in common? Both reformists, both believe in a revolution from the top rather than workers control.
You can read Denis MacShane on Chavez here:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk...e/2006/05/chavez_is_populist_not_a_socia.html
Many will know MacShane as the man who used to help co-ordinate British support for the dirty war in Colombia.
He refers to Chavez as a supporter of Saddam Hussein, in New Labour doublespeak this means an opponent of the war, and finally bemoans that he has refused to "modernise", in New Labour doublespeak this means a refusal to embrace neo-liberal reforms that do not benefit the majority of the people.
I think it is quite important to (in a non-sectarian) way be quite critical of Chavez, because he has now for many on the left become the alternative to the third way.
As an environmentalist, I am also gravely concerned about Chavez's environmental record, his socialism in one country relies on fossil fuels as it's basis, which has led to him supporting a pipeline that will destroy sections of the amazon.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Udo Erasmus said:
What "venom" would this be? The Socialist Party takes a generally supportive but also critical attitude towards Hands off Venezuela. I realise that such an approach must seem alien to an SWP member however, used as you are to hysterical cheerleading rather than critical thought.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Got this in an email:
—————————————-
“The Venezuelan Head of State gave instructions in order to meet with partners of two oil English refineries, where PDVSA is a shareholder, to sell cheap heating oil to the poorest
During the event held with British personalities and organizations, the President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, Hugo Chávez, called for integration between England and Venezuela.
“I propose for us to be more creative, and to integrate into London and its experience, into Caracas and its experience, beyond papers and declarations, just as Mayors Livingstone and Barreto are doing.”
President Chávez suggested the audience attending the event held at the Camden Center to supply the poorest with cheap heating oil by making the most of two refineries located in England’s north and south, where PDVSA is a shareholder
“We are going to make some estimates and see how far we can reach with these two refineries and our shares and, with the help of the London’s Town Hall and poor communities, we could start to make some donations and sell at discounts in some parts next winter.”
The Venezuelan president added that a special fund can be created to take care of social matters. He can grant microcredits to wheat small producers so that they can directly sell their product.
”These mechanisms can comprise the Peoples’ Trade Agreement. Fidel Castro, Evo Morales and I named it. Evo was the one who proposed the idea and made up the term. Instead of the Free Trade Agreement, which is a capitalist model that benefits the transnational companies and a minority, and exploits workers, Evo Morales called it People’s Trade Agreement.”
President Hugo Chávez said that he would like to start a People’s Trade Agreement with London “in order to open channels.”
“We could also work on many cooperation programs in the social and health fields. It is the ALBA (Bolivarian alternative for the Americas) linking to Europe.””
—————————————-
—————————————-
“The Venezuelan Head of State gave instructions in order to meet with partners of two oil English refineries, where PDVSA is a shareholder, to sell cheap heating oil to the poorest
During the event held with British personalities and organizations, the President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, Hugo Chávez, called for integration between England and Venezuela.
“I propose for us to be more creative, and to integrate into London and its experience, into Caracas and its experience, beyond papers and declarations, just as Mayors Livingstone and Barreto are doing.”
President Chávez suggested the audience attending the event held at the Camden Center to supply the poorest with cheap heating oil by making the most of two refineries located in England’s north and south, where PDVSA is a shareholder
“We are going to make some estimates and see how far we can reach with these two refineries and our shares and, with the help of the London’s Town Hall and poor communities, we could start to make some donations and sell at discounts in some parts next winter.”
The Venezuelan president added that a special fund can be created to take care of social matters. He can grant microcredits to wheat small producers so that they can directly sell their product.
”These mechanisms can comprise the Peoples’ Trade Agreement. Fidel Castro, Evo Morales and I named it. Evo was the one who proposed the idea and made up the term. Instead of the Free Trade Agreement, which is a capitalist model that benefits the transnational companies and a minority, and exploits workers, Evo Morales called it People’s Trade Agreement.”
President Hugo Chávez said that he would like to start a People’s Trade Agreement with London “in order to open channels.”
“We could also work on many cooperation programs in the social and health fields. It is the ALBA (Bolivarian alternative for the Americas) linking to Europe.””
—————————————-
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
There'll be more opportunity for discussion about the course of events in Venezuela and Latin America more generally at this day school:
Camden goes Caracas for Chavez
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/podcasts/2006/05/newsdesk_notes_for_monday_may_1.html
Includes soundbites from Chavez,Corbyn and comments from the Times and Guardian.
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/podcasts/2006/05/newsdesk_notes_for_monday_may_1.html
Includes soundbites from Chavez,Corbyn and comments from the Times and Guardian.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Fisher_Gate said:
Read some of Michael Lowy's stuff, though I have read his stuff on Liberation Theology, I never realised he was from Latin America - wrote an interesting book on Walter Benjamin recently, the kind of marxist the SP would never be able to understand!
X-77 said:it would have been more jam-packed than the 800 places they filled yesterday, that's for sure. There were more people outside the venue than went in yesterday, I reckon. Bet he could have filled Traf Square if Ken & co had cared to make his visit that accessible to us little people.
Edit to say: He addressed a meeting of 5000 in Vienna:http://www.handsoffvenezuela.org/
I wasn't there, but judging from the picture of Livingstone and Chavez, it looks like the audience had earphones for simultaneous translation - something that wouldn't have been possible in Trafalgar Square. Granted they could have done it at Wembley or something but that might have been expensive and a bit over the top?
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Udo Erasmus said:
Born and brought up in Brazil, though he went to live in Paris after graduating from university in Sao Paulo. I believe he is still a member of the LCR, though primarily known as an academic writer. His 'selective' bibliography runs to 18 pages!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Lowy
http://www.trotskyana.net/Trotskyists/Bio-Bibliographies/bio-bibl_loewy.pdf
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Udo Erasmus said:
Kowalewski is also an interesting character. He was the most senior member of the Polish Solidarity union to be outside the country (visiting the French Trade Unions) at the time of Jaruzelski's coup in 1981 and, unfortunately, had to go into exile. He is also a longstanding member of the Fourth International.
"Celia Hart, is the daughter of two historic leaders of the Cuban Revolution, Armando Hart and the late Haydée Santamaria. A physicist, writer and member of the Cuban Communist Party, she describes herself as a “freelance Trotskyist”. She has published many articles on Trotsky and on the Permanent Revolution."
http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/article.php3?id_article=898
In Vienna, a hall with a capacity of 800 sees a Chavez rally of 5000 chaired by a young shop steward. One speaker is cheered when he says “There are many meetings in Vienna right now. But there is no meeting like this one. We have not come here just to talk and then go home and forget about things. This meeting must be the launching pad for organising a great movement of solidarity in every country in Europe.” http://www.handsoffvenezuela.org/chavez_vienna_may12.htm
In London, a hall with a capacity of 800 sees a Labour Party run Chavez rally of 800 tops exclude hundreds of people by making it ticket only, using bouncers to keep people out and by making what's going on so confusing that loads of people didn't turn up anyway.
It's not that the anti-capitalist spirit in Britain is less than in Austria. It's that everytime you move in this country there's the Labour Party and its servants in bizarre left groups that only pop up to stop stuff happening ready with a portable wet blanket to calm things down, keep things in order, make sure things don't get out of hand and ensure the proper leaders run things.
And we let them get away with it.
In London, a hall with a capacity of 800 sees a Labour Party run Chavez rally of 800 tops exclude hundreds of people by making it ticket only, using bouncers to keep people out and by making what's going on so confusing that loads of people didn't turn up anyway.
It's not that the anti-capitalist spirit in Britain is less than in Austria. It's that everytime you move in this country there's the Labour Party and its servants in bizarre left groups that only pop up to stop stuff happening ready with a portable wet blanket to calm things down, keep things in order, make sure things don't get out of hand and ensure the proper leaders run things.
And we let them get away with it.
HUGO CHAVEZ DOLL( limited edition)e bay
Meanwhile Mr Chavez has become a cult figure of such standing that you can even buy a limited edition "doll revolucionario", which speaks phrases from the Venezuelan leader's best known speeches. http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a229/eduardo_dell/chu.jpg
was made to order to be distributed between the high personalities of the government bolivariano, ambassadors and to give it to the visitors of the palace of miraflores(cede of the Venezuelan government)new uniform and says many but phrases that the previous model all the phrases are different remember is a special edition made very few I could obtain them so that I am a buyer to the greater one.DOLL REVOLUCIONARO OF REPUBLICA BOLIVARIANA OF VENEZUELA WITH SOUND! AVAILABLE 1 NEW MODELS WITH NEW PHRASES The MODELS NOW WITH The SHIRT SHORT SLEEVE t hirt ON THE INSIDE OF The jacket And SYMBOLS IN The UNIFORM THAT SAYS To CHAVEZ Of The RIGHT SIDE And The MILITARY RANK OF COMMANDER IN The SUPERIOR PART
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
Meanwhile Mr Chavez has become a cult figure of such standing that you can even buy a limited edition "doll revolucionario", which speaks phrases from the Venezuelan leader's best known speeches. http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a229/eduardo_dell/chu.jpg
was made to order to be distributed between the high personalities of the government bolivariano, ambassadors and to give it to the visitors of the palace of miraflores(cede of the Venezuelan government)new uniform and says many but phrases that the previous model all the phrases are different remember is a special edition made very few I could obtain them so that I am a buyer to the greater one.DOLL REVOLUCIONARO OF REPUBLICA BOLIVARIANA OF VENEZUELA WITH SOUND! AVAILABLE 1 NEW MODELS WITH NEW PHRASES The MODELS NOW WITH The SHIRT SHORT SLEEVE t hirt ON THE INSIDE OF The jacket And SYMBOLS IN The UNIFORM THAT SAYS To CHAVEZ Of The RIGHT SIDE And The MILITARY RANK OF COMMANDER IN The SUPERIOR PART
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
marcvallee
Active Member
so do i - but, apparently, I wouldn't be able to understand it...Fisher_Gate
Active Member
justuname said:
Lowy's a bit more readable on Che Guevara:
http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/article.php3?id_article=270
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