nightbreed said:Good one Nigel. I noticed in the article below that the reclaim labour /labour loyal Alan Woods shared a platform with Hugo Chavez in Austria the other day!!
When are the SP going to start their Venezuela campaign? Maybe calling it the Venezuela Hands Off Campaign!! I had to laugh when last year the CWI formed the TUDCP in Pakistan as opposed to the PTUDC of the Woods group. Just move one letter!! Pass the otters noses , Brian
Socialist Appeal/Alan Woods display an uncritical,sycphantic line bordering on the cult of the personality when it comes to Chavez.
The role of revolutionary socialists http://www.socialistworld.net/
Important lessons can be learned from the wrong methods and ideas defended by the IMT relating to Venezuela. One of the most important questions is the role and responsibilities of revolutionary socialist organisations when intervening in periods of intense class conflict such as exists in Venezuela today.
The IMT have launched a solidarity campaign; ‘Hands off Venezuela’ which seems to have been endorsed by Hugo Chávez. Chávez, in his weekly TV Presidential broadcast ‘Alo Presidente’, has made quite extensive reference to a book written by Woods, ‘Reason in Revolt’. Alan Woods, who recently visited Venezuela, has met and dined with Chávez and produced a quite extensive account of this event, ‘Encounters with Hugo Chávez’ (29 April 2004). Since then he has also produced a series of articles including a two-part ‘Theses on revolution and counter-revolution in Venezuela’ (20 May 2004) and more recently an article on the referendum, ‘Venezuela: Bolivarian masses anger at referendum decision’ (04 June 2004).
This material reveals two main features about the methods of this grouping and the analysis it makes of events in Venezuela. Firstly, it shows a pronounced opportunism, especially in the approach it takes towards Hugo Chávez. This includes, for Marxists and workers in general, a repugnant ‘cult of the personality’. (A glance at the website of this organisation illustrates that this is one of the hallmarks of this organisation in dealing with its own leaders.)
The second feature is an extremely dangerous tendency for a group which claims to defend the methods and ideas of Marxism, to ‘dress up’ or ignore some of the complications and difficulties in the revolutionary events which are shaking Venezuela. Consequently important weaknesses and deficiencies in the movement – in particular the lack of a socialist consciousness and leadership, and what consequences this has had for the movement, are simply brushed aside.
The CWI, from the election of Chávez in 1998, has taken a positive approach to these events. We have fully recognised and frequently commented on the significance and importance of events in Venezuela. Yet the task of Marxists is not to ignore or refuse to comment on weaknesses, complications and obstacles faced by the movement, or incorrect policies and actions advocated by political parties and individual leaders.
Livingstone sabotages Chavez London rally
- Thread starter justuname
- Start date
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
nightbreed said:
Thanks.
nightbreed said:
So? Did Chavez anoint him with oil or something?
nightbreed said:
Really, you have to pay a bit closer attention. There is a rather fundamental difference between the Trade Union Rights Campaign Pakistan (TURC-P) and the Pakistan Trade Union Defence Campaign (PTUDC), despite the similarity in name.
The former exists to further working class independence in Pakistan. The latter exists to prop up the trade union arm of the PPP, Bhutto's party of the landlords and capitalists. The two organisations aim to achieve completely opposed things - the Woods group unfortunately launched their campaign to gather working class support for the right wing party they work in on a completely corrupt and unprincipled basis.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Leo Wilde said:Woods group has done alright, hasn't it
It depends what you mean by "done alright". They're clearly the biggest of the three relatively substantial Trotskyist groups in Pakistan, with anything up to 1,500 members. The thing is though that they've achieved this growth by reaching an accomodation with the bureaucracy of the utterly corrupt landlord-ridden PPP. In fact they now control part of its bureaucracy. Their political role is probably the worst, most corrupt and most unprincipled of any nominally Trotskyist group in the world - with the sole exception of Socialist Democracy in Brazil.
If the Woods group had the slightest shred of political principle (and we should be clear: they don't) they would have severed all links with their friends in Pakistan a long time ago. They are so desperate to have some "influence" somewhere in the world that they really don't care what that influence is based on.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
justuname said:
Once more: similar name does not equal similar organisation or similar goal.
lostexpectation
New Member
any other protests, I was going to say counter protests but that doesn't quite apply
JoePolitix
Gone
JoePolitix
Gone
Macullam said:
Here's Alan Wood's reply (although actually a response to the AWL) . Now I'm no fan of Wood's othodox Trotskyism any more I am of Taffe's othodox Trotskyism. But this is one gem of a critique of far left sectarianism:
http://www.marxist.com/sectarianism-venezuelan-revolution230704.htm
nightbreed
Im Bored
Macullam Socialist Appeal/Alan Woods display an uncritical said:That old chestnut!!
Are we all on the same side of the barricades?
Nigel
'It depends what you mean by "done alright". They're clearly the biggest of the three relatively substantial Trotskyist groups in Pakistan, with anything up to 1,500 members. The thing is though that they've achieved this growth by reaching an accomodation with the bureaucracy of the utterly corrupt landlord-ridden PPP. In fact they now control part of its bureaucracy. Their political role is probably the worst, most corrupt and most unprincipled of any nominally Trotskyist group in the world - with the sole exception of Socialist Democracy in Brazil.'
BTW didnt the group in Pakistan defect from the CWI and join the IMT?
Smells of petty secterian mud slinging to me. I take a lot of this with a pinch of salt.
With regard to CWI involvement in Venezuela , it appears to me that over the past 18 months or so there seems to be an interest in Chavez and the Bolivarian Revolution and that interest seems to be based on the reaction to IMT successes in the region. Shame really , because the CWI arent normally that slow to stake their claim.
JoePolitix said:
Unlike the Wood/ Grant Sectlet we have published all of the documents related to the split or as they like to call it expulsions. Including a reply to grants History of british trotskyism where he inflates the role played by himself and what is now the leadership of Socialist Appeal. http://www.marxist.net/
JoePolitix
Gone
Macullam said:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....
Why are SP comrades so intent on pissing on the Venezuelan bonfire?
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Livingstone...
...in suppression of mass rally shocker. How come I don't find it shocking?
Perhaps his police mate Blair asked him to move it.
Let's face it, Livingstone is pro-capitalist scum, yet this board is still full of mugs who support him.
What would he have to do to lose your support? Shaft the 'little people' in Straford to bulldoze through his building plans? Support Ian Blair over de Menezes? Make anti-semtic and/or racist remarks? Preside over a regressive tax (the Congestion charge)? Invite bigoted homophobe clerics to London to speak?
Oh, I forgot--he's done all these..
...in suppression of mass rally shocker. How come I don't find it shocking?
Perhaps his police mate Blair asked him to move it.
Let's face it, Livingstone is pro-capitalist scum, yet this board is still full of mugs who support him.
What would he have to do to lose your support? Shaft the 'little people' in Straford to bulldoze through his building plans? Support Ian Blair over de Menezes? Make anti-semtic and/or racist remarks? Preside over a regressive tax (the Congestion charge)? Invite bigoted homophobe clerics to London to speak?
Oh, I forgot--he's done all these..
JoePolitix
Gone
Simon B said:
Paul Hampton really is one pompus git:
He writes:
"But the substantial issue is the political line advocated for Venezulean workers. Woods makes a telling comment about why he doesn’t call Chávez a Bonapartist, saying ”it would immediately cut us off, not just from the masses, who are firmly behind Chávez, but also from the activists, most of whom remain loyal to Chávez”. In other words, Woods won’t tell the truth to workers, but prefers to buttress the illusions some sections have in Chávez. It’s a case of the tail wagging the dog (or maybe the fox) – of tailing behind sections of the class rather than calling things by their right names."
Or maybe Woods just doesn't think it's right to descibe Chavez as a "bonapartist" because it's a superfical, inaccurate and rather unimaginative term to describe him. It also convienently dove tails with imperialist propaganda that Chavez is a ruthless authoritarian who doesn't respect constitutional propriety. Typical AWL in other words.
JoePolitix
Gone
CNN update:
Chavez shuns Blair in London
Sunday, May 14, 2006 Posted: 1657 GMT (0057 HKT)
LONDON, England (AP) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez met with left-leaning lawmakers and trade union representatives in London Sunday, part of a two-day visit aimed at energizing Europe's social movements.
Taking the stage at a packed north London conference center, Chavez drew cheers of support from an audience of 500 people that included representatives of non-governmental organizations and British lawmakers.
The gathering, organized by London Mayor Ken Livingstone, a vocal Chavez supporter, was the first event during a packed two-day schedule that includes a meeting with the city's maverick mayor and a lecture at an institute promoting cultural and commercial ties between Britain and Latin America.
Hundreds of supporters waiting to hear Chavez's address on Sunday waved Venezuelan flags and danced to booming salsa music in the aisles.
"Ooh ahh Chavez no se va," or "Chavez is not going anywhere," shouted the crowd as music pumped from giant speakers.
Chavez will not meet with Prime Minister Tony Blair or any senior British government officials during his visit, which one political analyst said was a sign of tensions between the two governments.
But Chavez's visit to London seemed aimed at rallying support from social activists.
Chavez shuns Blair in London
Sunday, May 14, 2006 Posted: 1657 GMT (0057 HKT)
LONDON, England (AP) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez met with left-leaning lawmakers and trade union representatives in London Sunday, part of a two-day visit aimed at energizing Europe's social movements.
Taking the stage at a packed north London conference center, Chavez drew cheers of support from an audience of 500 people that included representatives of non-governmental organizations and British lawmakers.
The gathering, organized by London Mayor Ken Livingstone, a vocal Chavez supporter, was the first event during a packed two-day schedule that includes a meeting with the city's maverick mayor and a lecture at an institute promoting cultural and commercial ties between Britain and Latin America.
Hundreds of supporters waiting to hear Chavez's address on Sunday waved Venezuelan flags and danced to booming salsa music in the aisles.
"Ooh ahh Chavez no se va," or "Chavez is not going anywhere," shouted the crowd as music pumped from giant speakers.
Chavez will not meet with Prime Minister Tony Blair or any senior British government officials during his visit, which one political analyst said was a sign of tensions between the two governments.
But Chavez's visit to London seemed aimed at rallying support from social activists.
lostexpectation
New Member
JoePolitix said:
did htey not have to meet at the EU-Latin America summit the other day?
marcvallee
Active Member
Macullam said:
This is true and it took days to scan them all so people could read them for themselves on the site and make up there own minds. I should know as I was the one that scanned most of them. The weird thing being I was one of the folks that typed set them in the first place back in the 90's when I was one of the typesetters/layout artists at Militant.
The Chilean disaster happened in 1973 9/11. This was when the US goons started looking at their own backyard and decided that anything...anything being slightly progressive in the Americas should be struck down with right wing military coups and psycho death squads. All funded from the tax payers of the good old USA.Macullam said:
Seems as if the goons are kind of a caught up in a conflict in the Middle East right now...By fuck it aint the easiest job in the world to secure oil fields for those who should be exposed and derided for what they are. Oil seekers!
The problem with the cons is that they've lost the plot when it comes to their own 'backyard'.
Blowback Ahoy
Viva!
Just a quick point VIC is a Socialist Action front group hence the similarities with the ESF in London. The manipulations of Livingston are phenomonial when you consider SA's size. If you wanted tickets to the event it helped to have a contact in SA to ask if you wanted a ticket. I didn't ask for one incidently - translated meetings aren't my thing if Chavez's style of talking is really as long as it has been described.
I and others lived in Spain for a few years when Chavez was giving it big style against the Yankee Dollar and all its manifestations.levien said:
The Chavez fella is quite able to talk for ever and for always about the coming 'economic revolution'.
And in my humble opinion...I would say that the majority of Spanish persons would most likely feel the same
I was riding my bike up Euston Road today (Sunday evening) and bumped into President Chavez coming out of a side door of Camden Town Hall!
He was really friendly, and let me take some very close up photos.
Considering they were taken with my mobile phone, they are not too bad.
The pictures may be worth looking at to try and work out what sort of person he really is. I'm still trying, but my gut impression meeting him is that he is ok - but it does look like he may have bad taste in friends ....
I though his policy of giving fuel to poor Americans was a stroke of genuis.
I have put the pictures up on my 'schmoo on the run' blog at: http://www.schmoontherun.blogspot.com
He was really friendly, and let me take some very close up photos.
Considering they were taken with my mobile phone, they are not too bad.
The pictures may be worth looking at to try and work out what sort of person he really is. I'm still trying, but my gut impression meeting him is that he is ok - but it does look like he may have bad taste in friends ....
I though his policy of giving fuel to poor Americans was a stroke of genuis.
I have put the pictures up on my 'schmoo on the run' blog at: http://www.schmoontherun.blogspot.com
full frontal chavez - pictures posted
I was riding my bike up the Euston Road today (Sunday evening) when I bumped into President Chavez coming out of a side door from Camden Town Hall.
He was very friendly, and let me take some very close up photographs, and hung out on the street chatting for a lot longer than his minders, and the cops wanted him to.
The pictures are reasonably ok (considering they were taken with my mobile) and may be worth looking at to try and work out what sort of person he really is.
My 'gut' impression meeting him was that he was very genuine - although it does look like he may have bad taste in some of his friends.
I thought his scheme to give cheap fuel to poor Americans was a stroke of genius.
I've put the pictures up at: http://www.schmoontherun.blogspot.com
I was riding my bike up the Euston Road today (Sunday evening) when I bumped into President Chavez coming out of a side door from Camden Town Hall.
He was very friendly, and let me take some very close up photographs, and hung out on the street chatting for a lot longer than his minders, and the cops wanted him to.
The pictures are reasonably ok (considering they were taken with my mobile) and may be worth looking at to try and work out what sort of person he really is.
My 'gut' impression meeting him was that he was very genuine - although it does look like he may have bad taste in some of his friends.
I thought his scheme to give cheap fuel to poor Americans was a stroke of genius.
I've put the pictures up at: http://www.schmoontherun.blogspot.com
nightbreed
Im Bored
Just heard on the TV BBC news , London Tories call the visit by Chavez a disgrace!!
No comment from the new labour 'tories ' as yet.
No comment from the new labour 'tories ' as yet.
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