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Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

Deareg said:
If they were part of the volunteer rebel forces, then how do they count as civilians? especially as Gaddafy's army contain many conscripts.
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"Civilians" is the new Orwellian speak for anyone who the West supports.
 
Bringing in the A10s means major destruction of artillery / supply lines / tanks etc will happen - shitty old aircraft that can only do one job, but they do it well, scarily well actually. Still the best tool for the job, even though I remember sitting in the cockpit of one on a school trip to USAF Bentwaters (I think..) in about 1981.
 
twentythreedom said:
Bringing in the A10s means major destruction of artillery / supply lines / tanks etc will happen - shitty old aircraft that can only do one job, but they do it well, scarily well actually. Still the best tool for the job, even though I remember sitting in the cockpit of one on a school trip to USAF Bentwaters (I think..) in about 1981.
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i remember when iraq was invaded there was a news report showing one of those a10s shooting a building in baghdad. ive managed to find a clip of it on youtube:

i remember being shocked at the time of first seeing it, thinking how they always made a big deal about their 'smart' weapons but how utterly indiscriminate it is to strafe an office block in the middle of the day. what kind of massive cunt would you have to be to actually pull the trigger in that situation?

when it was first decided we were going to go to war in libya perhaps i was naive to hope that after all his aircraft had been destroyed perhaps saner heads in the regime would move against gadaffi and save everyone from more death. its been two weeks now so i think if that was going to happen it probably would have already.
 
AP Interview: Libya rebel says they seek democracy
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...Ijuw-w?docId=69d4feaaead84854903afa3a25e49783
BENGHAZI, Libya (AP) — Libyan rebels want to install a parliamentary democracy in place of longtime ruler Moammar Gadhafi, one of their top leaders said Sunday, dismissing Western fears that their movement could be hijacked by Islamic extremists.

"Libyans as a whole — and I am one of them — want a civilian democracy, not dictatorship, not tribalism and not one based on violence or terrorism," Abdel-Hafidh Ghoga, vice chairman of the National Provisional Council, said in an interview with The Associated Press.
...
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dylans said:
Phil you know my position on Western intervention. I have spelt it out in more detail than probably anyone on these boards. I oppose it but I also oppose CRs absurd and offensive binary logic that assumes opposition to imperialism must equal support for Gaddafi. As someone who opposes both Gaddafi and Western intervention I find myself walking a tightrope. On the one hand I have posted many many posts condemning the western attempt at regime change and I have been called a supporter of Gaddafi for my trouble. On the other hand I refuse to remain quiet in the face of people like CRs slavish uncritical cheerleading for Gaddafii and I am called a pro imperialist for my trouble. Both accusations are examples of binary with us or against us logic and I reject both.

The fact is CR has consistantly refused to answer a single criticism of Gaddafi's appalling human rights record and that is simply not acceptable. Supporters of Gaddafi are a stain on legitimate anti imperialist arguments and give ammunition to those who claim those who oppose intervention must be supporters of this vicious reactionary regime. The same smear that was used against the anti war movement around Iraq when we were told that opposing the invasion meant supporting Saddam Hussein. That was false then and it is false now. True anti imperialists should condemn western intervention without falling for the lie of supporting Gaddafi. I want to see Gaddafi face a firing squad, he deserves to be overthrown. But it must be at the hands of the Libyan people not the West
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Then be fucking consistent instead of following me around the board calling me a cunt and then pretty much posting what Ive been posting a few days later ( including the kuwaiti princess video) . The Sandinista government are currently assisting Libya at the UN , representing them diplomatically . Venezuela and Bolivia are up to their necks with the Libyan government proclaiming them as revolutionaries . Spend at least half the time cunting them off as a stain on genuine anti imperialism as you have me . Afterall all Ive done is make a few posts on an internet forum , not taken myself off to the UN to act as a diplomat .
But then of course denouncing countries such as these as a stain on genuine anti imperialism would be utterly ridiculous , particularly if ones own anti imperialist credentials amounted to waving a placard at something the odd time . However the inconsistency remains and glaringly so .
True anti imperialists , such as the ones Ive mentioned above already have done , would realise that right now Libya is involved in a deadly war against imperialism and now isnt the time for sitting on the fence casting plagues on everyones houses because ones textbook definition of whats an acceptable anti imperialist is not met by current circumstances . Fear of jeopardising ones virginity is understandable to a degree but utterly fucking useless . The time to be criticising Ghadaffi and calling for firing squads is not when NATO bombs are raining down on Libya . The time to be supporting the Libyan fight against imperilaism is when the bombs are raining down on Libya . Simple as .
Maybe you are better versed , better qualified and better able to pronounce on matters anti imperialist than the Sandanistas et al (and Ive longstanding fucking criticisms of them too but again at the right time and the right place ) . But theres a time and a place . Anyone whos remotely worried at how the reactionary right and liberals will tar and blacken them isnt much use to any anti imperialist cause to be frank . Youll be tarred anyway if you are any use . Either that or completely ignored for being useless .

Anyways , a bit of consistency would be appreciated . Spend at least half the time youve spent badgering me accross the board criticising them for providing concrete support or be an inconsistent hypocrite . Up to you .
 
binka said:
i remember when iraq was invaded there was a news report showing one of those a10s shooting a building in baghdad. ive managed to find a clip of it on youtube:

i remember being shocked at the time of first seeing it, thinking how they always made a big deal about their 'smart' weapons but how utterly indiscriminate it is to strafe an office block in the middle of the day. what kind of massive cunt would you have to be to actually pull the trigger in that situation?

when it was first decided we were going to go to war in libya perhaps i was naive to hope that after all his aircraft had been destroyed perhaps saner heads in the regime would move against gadaffi and save everyone from more death. its been two weeks now so i think if that was going to happen it probably would have already.
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It needs to be remebered those things spew out rounds made of depleted uranium , which naturally enough spews out depleted uranium as soon as they hit anything . Swathes of Serbia are still coated in the stuff . The legacy lingers on long after the initial killings .
 
Casually Red said:
Then be fucking consistent instead of following me around the board calling me a cunt and then pretty much posting what Ive been posting a few days later ( including the kuwaiti princess video) . The Sandinista government are currently assisting Libya at the UN , representing them diplomatically . Venezuela and Bolivia are up to their necks with the Libyan government proclaiming them as revolutionaries . Spend at least half the time cunting them off as a stain on genuine anti imperialism as you have me . Afterall all Ive done is make a few posts on an internet forum , not taken myself off to the UN to act as a diplomat .
But then of course denouncing countries such as these as a stain on genuine anti imperialism would be utterly ridiculous , particularly if ones own anti imperialist credentials amounted to waving a placard at something the odd time . However the inconsistency remains and glaringly so .
True anti imperialists , such as the ones Ive mentioned above already have done , would realise that right now Libya is involved in a deadly war against imperialism and now isnt the time for sitting on the fence casting plagues on everyones houses because ones textbook definition of whats an acceptable anti imperialist is not met by current circumstances . Fear of jeopardising ones virginity is understandable to a degree but utterly fucking useless . The time to be criticising Ghadaffi and calling for firing squads is not when NATO bombs are raining down on Libya . The time to be supporting the Libyan fight against imperilaism is when the bombs are raining down on Libya . Simple as .
Maybe you are better versed , better qualified and better able to pronounce on matters anti imperialist than the Sandanistas et al (and Ive longstanding fucking criticisms of them too but again at the right time and the right place ) . But theres a time and a place . Anyone whos remotely worried at how the reactionary right and liberals will tar and blacken them isnt much use to any anti imperialist cause to be frank . Youll be tarred anyway if you are any use . Either that or completely ignored for being useless .

Anyways , a bit of consistency would be appreciated . Spend at least half the time youve spent badgering me accross the board criticising them for providing concrete support or be an inconsistent hypocrite . Up to you .
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I´m not a fan of Gaddafi, but I agree that it does seem a but strange to be slagging him off just at the moment. Dylans, your priorities seem a bit skewed tbh. Lets not lose sight of who is attacking whom.
 
Divisive Cotton said:
Is it propaganda or do the facts contradict the layers of opinion you have built around your argument for popular support for Gadaffi?
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its probably coming from the very same source that told us Libyan government spies had infiltrated a rebel convoy and deliberately caused NATO to blow the shit out of it - and an ambulance assisting the casualties .
Thinning out the herd but not the bullshit .

BTW is Ghadaffi still decorating the bomb craters with all his victims he keeps in a freezer ?
 
Casually Red said:
Then be fucking consistent instead of following me around the board calling me a cunt and then pretty much posting what Ive been posting a few days later ( including the kuwaiti princess video) . The Sandinista government are currently assisting Libya at the UN , representing them diplomatically . Venezuela and Bolivia are up to their necks with the Libyan government proclaiming them as revolutionaries . Spend at least half the time cunting them off as a stain on genuine anti imperialism as you have me . Afterall all Ive done is make a few posts on an internet forum , not taken myself off to the UN to act as a diplomat .
But then of course denouncing countries such as these as a stain on genuine anti imperialism would be utterly ridiculous , particularly if ones own anti imperialist credentials amounted to waving a placard at something the odd time . However the inconsistency remains and glaringly so .
True anti imperialists , such as the ones Ive mentioned above already have done , would realise that right now Libya is involved in a deadly war against imperialism and now isnt the time for sitting on the fence casting plagues on everyones houses because ones textbook definition of whats an acceptable anti imperialist is not met by current circumstances . Fear of jeopardising ones virginity is understandable to a degree but utterly fucking useless . The time to be criticising Ghadaffi and calling for firing squads is not when NATO bombs are raining down on Libya . The time to be supporting the Libyan fight against imperilaism is when the bombs are raining down on Libya . Simple as .
Maybe you are better versed , better qualified and better able to pronounce on matters anti imperialist than the Sandanistas et al (and Ive longstanding fucking criticisms of them too but again at the right time and the right place ) . But theres a time and a place . Anyone whos remotely worried at how the reactionary right and liberals will tar and blacken them isnt much use to any anti imperialist cause to be frank . Youll be tarred anyway if you are any use . Either that or completely ignored for being useless .

Anyways , a bit of consistency would be appreciated . Spend at least half the time youve spent badgering me accross the board criticising them for providing concrete support or be an inconsistent hypocrite . Up to you .
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I'm completely consistent. I support the revolutionary overthrow of Gaddafi by the Libyan people. Your "anti imperialist" heroes the Sandanista's and Chavez sided with Gaddafi long before Western intervention. From day one when Gaddafi was using heavy machine guns and hot water cannon on demonstrators in Benghazi . Ortega, the cunt, sided with his friend Gaddafi against his own people. Yes that makes him a stain but at least he was consistant and unashamedly supported the regime that paid his bills as it killed its own people. Chavez was more cowardly, refusing to condone or condemn Gaddafi and attacking Western intervention before it had even happened. In effect using the question of intervention as an excuse to avoid support for a revolution. Revolutionaries and anti imperialists don't side with reactionary dictators against their own people.

I have been opposed to Western intervention from the moment it looked likely. Whereas you, by your own admission initially supported the revolution and then SWITCHED SIDES to become a cocksucking whore to a vicious dictator. I reject your binary logic that assumes opposing Western intervention means siding wiuth Gaddafi. I opposed Western intervention in Iraq too that didn't mean I became a cheerleader for Saddam Hussein.

Well done by the way, your little rant has COMPLETLEY AVOIDED addressing a single one of the criticisms I raise about Gaddafi. So how about answering them and telling us what is anti imperialist about deporting thousands of Palestinians and stranding them in the desert or in arresting and killing migrant workers and asylum seekers. You are quick to cry crocodile tears when migrant workers are killed by rebels but you are silent when the same charge is aimed at Gaddafi.
 
phildwyer said:
I´m not a fan of Gaddafi, but I agree that it does seem a but strange to be slagging him off just at the moment. Dylans, your priorities seem a bit skewed tbh. Lets not lose sight of who is attacking whom.
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Binary logic. You think it is possible to build opposition against Western intervention by uncritically cheerleading a vicious reactionary dictator? Good luck with that
 
dylans said:
Binary logic. You think it is possible to build opposition against Western intervention by uncritically cheerleading a vicious reactionary dictator? Good luck with that
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These are people who value their assumptions more than anything else. No mental flexibility. Outside events are filtered and reinterpretted to match the internal narrative. And this narrative is held unquestioningly.

I think in the case of Casually Red or Ernesto, they just aren't very bright, but have latched onto some basic precepts of marxist thinking. But other than tippexing "Stalin" on their schoolbags, they don't really have much more to offer.
 
Idaho said:
These are people who value their assumptions more than anything else. No mental flexibility. Outside events are filtered and reinterpretted to match the internal narrative. And this narrative is held unquestioningly.

I think in the case of Casually Red or Ernesto, they just aren't very bright, but have latched onto some basic precepts of marxist thinking. But other than tippexing "Stalin" on their schoolbags, they don't really have much more to offer.
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They've failed to grasp the most basic precept of marxist thinking re political change tho - that masses' activity is at the heart of it or it's worth nothing*. Without that outlook you won't see a solution that has to be anti-dictatorship, but is also against the west's co-opting of any movement as well as having a very cynical eye on those in the leadership of the rebel movement who would railroad it straight into being another dictatorship, even with a thin democratic veneer, a la Iraq

* That's stalinism all over tho - worship of a dictator
 
6th item on the BBC lunchtime TV news - after pension reform: You know you're in trouble when pension . . .

The end game seems well underway now that Gaddafi is sitting tight to the east of the three oil ports - dug in going no where: All his chips in hand and ready to play.
 
dylans said:
I'm completely consistent. I support the revolutionary overthrow of Gaddafi by the Libyan people. Your "anti imperialist" heroes the Sandanista's and Chavez sided with Gaddafi long before Western intervention. From day one when Gaddafi was using heavy machine guns and hot water cannon on demonstrators in Benghazi . Ortega, the cunt, sided with his friend Gaddafi against his own people. Yes that makes him a stain but at least he was consistant and unashamedly supported the regime that paid his bills as it killed its own people. Chavez was more cowardly, refusing to condone or condemn Gaddafi and attacking Western intervention before it had even happened. In effect using the question of intervention as an excuse to avoid support for a revolution. Revolutionaries and anti imperialists don't side with reactionary dictators against their own people.
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oops sorry , you are actually on a higher plane of anti imperialist and revolutionary consciousness than anyone else in the world . My mistake .
I have been opposed to Western intervention from the moment it looked likely. Whereas you, by your own admission initially supported the revolution and then SWITCHED SIDES to become a cocksucking whore to a vicious dictator.
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Indeed , just for the hell of it too . I switched sides as you call it when it became apparent there wasnt a revolution to begin with . Only a reactionary counter revolution . Something I was castigated on here for weeks for pointing out , by yourself included . Only to read days later you were posting pretty much the same stuff as myself but calling me all sorts of cunts into the bargain .
I reject your binary logic that assumes opposing Western intervention means siding wiuth Gaddafi. I opposed Western intervention in Iraq too that didn't mean I became a cheerleader for Saddam Hussein.
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again your completely illogical , I oppose western intervention because Im a political enemy of the western powers and all they stand for and simply because they are engaged in an act of imperialism. Its their raison d'etre . Ghadaffi is fighting against that . His fight is an anti imperialist fight . Anti imperialists have to support that fight in my view . Otherwise very simply in this instance they arent supporting the anti imperialist fight - which is currently centred in Libya . Any other stance is one of a Pontius Pilate in my view given the reality of what is actually happening as opposed to sterile textbook theories .
Albeit Im obviously not as marvellously anti imperialist as yourself . I am however cognisant that Mr Ghadaffi has spent biillions funding arming and training anti imperialist movements accross the 4 corners of the earth - from europe to Latin America - for some decades , since before you were in short trousers . And that your probably a member of some group that hasnt gotten much further than waving a placard against imperialism for decades . I support Ghadaffi in this instance because he is physically resisting imperialism , something he has done for decades . And which you and whatever group you adhere to have patently not done . I also support him because if he emerges victorious from tis , or even intact , he may well intnnsify once again his efforts in that direction and cause all sorts of difficulties for the western powers .
In my view while you have a perfect right to say whatever comes out of your head at any given moment you dont possess the credibility to make such pronouncements with any gravitas , whether about him , Chavez or the Sandinistas . And your choice of timing further erodes whatever gravitas your observations might possess .
Well done by the way, your little rant has COMPLETLEY AVOIDED addressing a single one of the criticisms I raise about Gaddafi. So how about answering them and telling us what is anti imperialist about deporting thousands of Palestinians and stranding them in the desert or in arresting and killing migrant workers and asylum seekers. You are quick to cry crocodile tears when migrant workers are killed by rebels but you are silent when the same charge is aimed at Gaddafi.
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No I havent . What I have done along with another poster is make it clear to you that there is an appropriate time and place to address such issues . And when western bombs are raining down on Libya now is not the time to be justifying them in any manner whatsoever or undermining the right of Libyans to resist them . Not only my view .
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Casually Red said:
oops sorry , you are actually on a higher plane of anti imperialist and revolutionary consciousness than anyone else in the world . My mistake .


Indeed , just for the hell of it too . I switched sides as you call it when it became apparent there wasnt a revolution to begin with . Only a reactionary counter revolution . Something I was castigated on here for weeks for pointing out , by yourself included . Only to read days later you were posting pretty much the same stuff as myself but calling me all sorts of cunts into the bargain .


again your completely illogical , I oppose western intervention because Im a political enemy of the western powers and all they stand for and simply because they are engaged in an act of imperialism. Its their raison d'etre . Ghadaffi is fighting against that . His fight is an anti imperialist fight . Anti imperialists have to support that fight in my view . Otherwise very simply in this instance they arent supporting the anti imperialist fight - which is currently centred in Libya . Any other stance is one of a Pontius Pilate in my view given the reality of what is actually happening as opposed to sterile textbook theories .
Albeit Im obviously not as marvellously anti imperialist as yourself . I am however cognisant that Mr Ghadaffi has spent biillions funding arming and training anti imperialist movements accross the 4 corners of the earth - from europe to Latin America - for some decades , since before you were in short trousers . And that your probably a member of some group that hasnt gotten much further than waving a placard against imperialism for decades . I support Ghadaffi in this instance because he is physically resisting imperialism , something he has done for decades . And which you and whatever group you adhere to have patently not done . I also support him because if he emerges victorious from tis , or even intact , he may well intnnsify once again his efforts in that direction and cause all sorts of difficulties for the western powers .
In my view while you have a perfect right to say whatever comes out of your head at any given moment you dont possess the credibility to make such pronouncements with any gravitas , whether about him , Chavez or the Sandinistas . And your choice of timing further erodes whatever gravitas your observations might possess .


No I havent . What I have done along with another poster is make it clear to you that there is an appropriate time and place to address such issues . And when western bombs are raining down on Libya now is not the time to be justifying them in any manner whatsoever or undermining the right of Libyans to resist them . Not only my view .
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Oh, give over.

Gadafi is imperialism's junior partner. He runs his corner for them and although he's often been troublesome he's always delivered on his product. It shows the limitations of anti-imperialism and that the only consistenly potential anti-imperialist actions come from the masses, not dodgy dictators. So, we should be against the western intervention, but also against Gadafi, and against the 'rebel' leaders who would just soon step into his shoes. And we should be for Libyan workers organising themselves into workers and neighbourhood councils to fight for these things.
 
What's the point in being a communist if all you actually do is support dodgy dictators? It gets us nowhere
 
Spion said:
What's the point in being a communist if all you actually do is support dodgy dictators? It gets us nowhere
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try opposing an imperialist war agaianst Libya by saying - Please dont be bombing Libya , Ghadaffi is a right cunt that deserves to die . Actually thats what the lefties are doing .
 
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