Libya - civil unrest & now NATO involvement

[likesfish]

Remember that massive 500 pound bomb launched straightt into that Iraqi shelter in the first gulf war? Hundreds of civilians killed and maimed. "Collateral damage."

To be fair what sort of twAt builds a combined military signals
Centre and civil shelter.
Poor sods would have been better off at home

 

[weltweit]

From what I read, the allies are being quite careful not to injure civilians.

After all, the UN mandate is all about protecting civilians.

I have read of bombing runs called off because of civilian vehicles near a target tank, and longer range bombing runs called off by forces on the ground who saw civilians in the vicinity of the target.

 

[weltweit]

Tornado crew describe raid on Libya
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...7422/Tornado-crew-describe-raid-on-Libya.html
An RAF crewman has given the first account of a raid over Libya in which his Tornado identified and destroyed four tanks belonging to forces loyal to Col Gaddafi.

 

[elbows]

Remember that massive 500 pound bomb launched straightt into that Iraqi shelter in the first gulf war? Hundreds of civilians killed and maimed. "Collateral damage."

Yeah I was a teenager at the time and I seem to recall the whole tone of tv news about the Iraq war rapidly changed soon after, I assumed at the time that it was as a result of that deadly incident, but perhaps something else was going on, I wasnt very well informed at the time. Either way just hearing about that was bad enough at the time, I had pushed it to the back of my mind but since the Libya bombing started I've thought about it a few times.

It sounds like they have actually managed not to inflict much 'collateral damage' in Tripoli yet, but this level of care/luck does not usually last.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

From what I read, the allies are being quite careful not to injure civilians.

After all, the UN mandate is all about protecting civilians.

I have read of bombing runs called off because of civilian vehicles near a target tank, and longer range bombing runs called off by forces on the ground who saw civilians in the vicinity of the target.

Sounds like good pr to me.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Sounds like good pr to me.

Agreed. The civilians shot during the pilot rescue have been pushed out of the news quickly enough. Not that they were really in the news.

With the media using emotional blackmail to sell this intervention don't expect them to focus anywhere that will damage the PR effort.

 

[dylans]

The man from Benghazi said they had some prisoners from Gaddafi's forces who had told them that their instructions on taking Benghazi were to kill all the males between 16 and 40 or 50 years old.

I heard they were ordered to take all the babies out of the incubators and force the population to be human shields around his WMD sites. Except for the women who were intended as comfort women for the troops in specially built rape camps. Just what I heard

 

[weltweit]

I heard they were ordered to take all the babies out of the incubators and force the population to be human shields around his WMD sites. Except for the women who were intended as comfort women for the troops in specially built rape camps. Just what I heard

I got my piece of propoganda from Frost on Al Jazeera English. Where did you get yours?

 

[Anudder Oik]

I got my piece of propoganda from Frost on Al Jazeera English. Where did you get yours?

Who owns Al Jazeera?

 

[weltweit]

Who owns Al Jazeera?

Sheikh Hamad bin Thamer Al Thani

 

[Crispy]

From what I read, the allies are being quite careful not to injure civilians.

After all, the UN mandate is all about protecting civilians.

I have read of bombing runs called off because of civilian vehicles near a target tank, and longer range bombing runs called off by forces on the ground who saw civilians in the vicinity of the target.

All well and good, but it is not watertight at all.

 

[weltweit]

All well and good, but it is not watertight at all.

I suggested at the start, that the way Gaddafi tanks could avoid the new threat from the skies would be to get into the outskirts of the cities they were attacking because once in amongst the buildings and civilians, the allies would not be able to launch air attacks on them for fear of civilians getting hurt.

That seems to be what is happening in a couple of cities but the allies have taken a strategy of attacking the supply lines bringing new fuel and ammunition to the front, the idea being that denying the forward tanks these supplies will mean after a while they will simply have to be abandonned.

But I agree, it is not watertight, the Gaddafi regime will claim the allies are killing civilians, and the alliance and the rebels will say they are not. Where the truth is will be hard to guage. I suppose the sooner it is over the better.

 

[Anudder Oik]

I suggested at the start, that the way Gaddafi tanks could avoid the new threat from the skies would be to get into the outskirts of the cities they were attacking because once in amongst the buildings and civilians, the allies would not be able to launch air attacks on them for fear of civilians getting hurt.

That seems to be what is happening in a couple of cities but the allies have taken a strategy of attacking the supply lines bringing new fuel and ammunition to the front, the idea being that denying the forward tanks these supplies will mean after a while they will simply have to be abandonned.

But I agree, it is not watertight, the Gaddafi regime will claim the allies are killing civilians, and the alliance and the rebels will say they are not. Where the truth is will be hard to guage. I suppose the sooner it is over the better.

On a purely tactical level, tanks in an urban environment should be easy for the rebels to take out themselves. In fact they captured 4 of Gaddafi's tanks in Bengazi just before the UN intervention, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

What is of concern is where they (NATO) will go from here...

 

[weltweit]

...
What is of concern is where they (NATO) will go from here...

Indeed, and how long the operation might take.

Apparently NATO is planning a 90 day operation (supporting UNSC Resolution 1973) which can be shortenned or lengthenned.

I am not convinced the rebels have what is needed to take out Gaddafi, any time soon at least, which means there could be a stalemate.

 

[Anudder Oik]

With all the Emotional Blackmail journalism going around it's good to see the Guardian making some sense..

Libya and the suspicious rush to war

One can't help but be struck by the rush to military involvement by politicians of all countries and all persuasions. The contrast with the western treatment of the rest of the region could not be more stark. The Palestinian people have lived with occupation for 60 years, well over 1,000 died in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, settlements abound and Israel possesses nuclear weapons. I can't remember anyone calling for a no-fly zone in Gaza in winter 2008-09 when phosphorous bombs were used against a largely unarmed and defenceless civilian population.

Link to article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...artition-military-action?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

 

[pk]

That's different. PK knows the truth about those Muslamics

LOL, fuck off! The EDL retards have nothing to do with it...

 

[weltweit]

With all the Emotional Blackmail journalism going around it's good to see the Guardian making some sense..

Libya and the suspicious rush to war

The key issues though of each situation are the questions: what is legitimate to do? and what can we do? .. In the situation in Libya we managed a UN SC Resolution and could do a no-fly zone and thus are doing it, what legitimacy could we have established against Israel with the USA always vetoing action and as you mention they are a heavily armed nuclear state. What in relation to Israel could we actually do?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Who owns Al Jazeera?

There's a story about George Orwell during the war when he was having tea with some friends in the Communist Party. Their opinion was vehemently anti-war until it was announced over the radio that Germany had invaded the USSR, whereupon mid-sentence their views totally changed to pro-war. It was experiences like this, amongst others, that lead him to write 1984.

Up until a week ago there was uncritical praise and universal regurgitating of mainstream news reporting of Middle East current affairs from U75 members.

Now, reports of war atrocities by Gadaffi forces are to be mocked as war propaganda while the very integrity of the broadcasters themselves including the BBC, the Guardian and Al-Jazeera has to be questioned.

It's a funny old world isn't it.

 

[ernestolynch]

Orwell the tout. Cool story bro.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

1225: A strange and disturbing tale from AP, which reports that a woman with a bloodied thigh and scratches on her face stormed into a Tripoli hotel to tell foreign reporters she had been raped by Gaddafi forces at a checkpoint in the city. The report continues: "A waitress brandished a knife, calling [the woman] a traitor, and government minders shoved back reporters who tried to intervene while the woman was dragged outside screaming."

via the BBC makes it more human.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/27/world/middleeast/27tripoli.html?hp

 

[weltweit]

Ken Clarke has said that Britain is at risk of another Lockerbie as revenge in the wake of Britain taking action against the regime in Libya.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Gaddafi scum raping women in Tripoli. The rebels are advancing though, won't be long till the vermin are wiped out.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

via the BBC makes it more human.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/27/world/middleeast/27tripoli.html?hp

Just seeing a report on Channel 4. The report translated her tearful shouting, and that soldiers had not only raped her but defecated and urinated on her.

 

[likesfish]

Orwell the tout. Cool story bro.

the only communist is a dead one orwell understood that

 

[Lakina]

Ken Clarke has said that Britain is at risk of another Lockerbie as revenge in the wake of Britain taking action against the regime in Libya.

"I supported the intervention to stop a humanitarian massacre and to stop a dictator attacking his own people and to restore order so far as we can. What we seem to have almost established in international law is the humanitarian basis, which can in exceptional cases justify intervention by the international community. What you have actually got is intervention on humanitarian grounds authorised by a UN resolution, carried out by the international community. It is a significant event in the evolution of the world order."

 

[weltweit]

So, there was a rumour that the rebels had 100 tanks, they apparently took over a few more just recently. I wonder how the alliance air forces are going to differentiate between a Gaddafi tank and a rebel one when they are targetting?

 

[Idaho]

the only communist is a dead one orwell understood that

You're both wrong.

 

[Idaho]

Both sides will be killing civilians. The difference will a question of scale and intent. In those categories I would probably say the bombing/missiling forces are probably a fair degree less bad than Gaddafi's.

Gaza is a case of terrible injustice and a wrong that needs to be righted, but I don't think it's comparable to the Libya situation. It's much more complex.

 

[weltweit]

The rebels seem to have taken Ajdabiya and Brega back from the regime forces.

 

[Casually Red]

Sheikh Hamad bin Thamer Al Thani

who as emir of Qatar , foreign minister of Qatar , as well as the stations owner just happens to be the most eager of the Arab leaders to have his forces participate in the bombing of Libya . Qatari jets are flying over Libya as we speak . Whatever its merits Al jazeera simply isnt a reliable source for information on this issue .

Qatar is the only Arab state to have promised Saturday at an emergency meeting in Paris to participate in military operations in Libya.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/03/20/qatar-defends-participation-in-libya-operations.html