Libertarian Party Uk

[ItWillNeverWork]

Not a bit of it. Labour are authoritarian left. Admittedly their economic thinking -- the market can be harnessed to deliver left-wing ends -- is demented, but their preoccupations are those of the cultural left. 50% of school leavers railroaded into university, money thrown at the NHS, an ever-growing public sector, expansion of the EU's influence, punishing the (lower) middle class through the tax system, and so on.

Most strikingly, they're against selection by ability in our schools, continuing the thread begun by Crossland in The Future of Socialism.

Must say, the proposals -- abolition of tariffs, subsidies, abolition of certain health & safety laws -- sounds pretty laissez faire!

I think the issue that is important to understand is that certain state interventions favour capital, others favour labour. The so-called 'laissez faire' of most right-wing libertarians favours the abolition of those parts of the state that make capitalism bearable, such as the NHS, the welfare state. They do this at the same time as ignoring the state interventions that created and maintain the capitalist system. It's a case of laissez faire when it suits them.

My position is that the Capitalist system is made possible only when the state intervenes to maintain the power that large capital has over the rest of us. The act of market exchange, which was once a mutually beneficial process for the parties involved, has become a process of silent theft (what marxists would refer to as the extraction of surplus value). Without the power that capital gains through it's alliance to the state, this theft could not take place

 

[Fedayn]

And we're back to definitions.

How would you define "leftist"? In strict economic terms?

Pro-working class, giving increased political and economic power in favour of the working class. A political idea that argues and strugggles for the political independence of the working class and for that sociwety to be organised under the democratic control of the working class.

Total lack of punishment for the rich who fuck us over yes! The prisons are overcrowded or did you ignore that before making your claim? Courts are collapsing under the weight/amount of cases.... Yup that's right punishment is slacking.

Where you might be right is that effective and useful punishment isn't much used these days, simply populaist crass slogans.

 

[TomPaine]

So in short, they are a neo-liberal party, ie NOT leftist, with a handful of Leftists still in their ranks..... As such not Leftist. The BNP claim that Labour are marxist, does that make their perception right? Perception doesn't make something so.

Yes I would say their economic policy is Neo-liberal, however I would say they still use the trappings of the past and still have a support base of those who lean to the Left as well as Left wing MPs who I am surprised haven't quit their ranks.
They also have and under Blair had a fair number of MPs who came from what would be considered the far Left in their past.

The fact is the perception has some justification because of the above. Labour continue to use the rhetoric and trappings of the Left mixed in with their Neo-Liberal agenda and continue to get support from groups that traditonally vote left or actively support the left.

Forget the BNP, their perception of the Labour party is inconsequential, however the public's perception at large and the media are what ultimatly lead to them either being voted into power, or how they are portrayed to the public.

 

[Azrael]

Pro-working class, giving increased political and economic power in favour of the working class. A political idea that argues and strugggles for the political independence of the working class and for that sociwety to be organised under the democratic control of the working class.

By that criteria, no, Labour aren't left-wing. But then Fabians have been making decisions "on behalf of the working class" for over a century. I guess you wouldn't class them as left-wing, but that's a common view of them, even amongst those who call Labour "right-wing".

And yes, our gaols are full to bursting. That's where a lot of crime gets you. If we gaoled anything like we should be doing, instead of handing out endless second chances, they'd have exploded years ago. The CJA 2003 introduced yet more remission, and increased the use of electronic tagging. Labour haven't done a jot to make prison conditions more onerous, or to impose hard labour. They're fanatical opponents of the death penalty, and love "liberal intervention".

Labout talk "tough", might convince lots of people they're somehow right-wing, or, bizarrely, conservative, but they're left-wing authoritarians through and through.

 

[danny la rouge]

A post-Thatcherite left-wing authoritarian party who think neoliberalism can be harnessed for left-wing ends.

No. Full-blown neoliberals, in awe of Thatcher. Right wing, in fact.

Your analysis might have been accurate to some extent of Kinnock, or less so Smith, but not since the Blair take over.

What some grassroots members may delude themselves to be the case is a different issue.

 

[TomPaine]

‘The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few.’

what a load of bollocks.

 

[Fedayn]

By that criteria, no, Labour aren't left-wing. But then Fabians have been making decisions "on behalf of the working class" for over a century. I guess you wouldn't class them as left-wing, but that's a common view of them, even amongst those who call Labour "right-wing".

And yes, our gaols are full to bursting. That's where a lot of crime gets you. If we gaoled anything like we should be doing, instead of handing out endless second chances, they'd have exploded years ago. The CJA 2003 introduced yet more remission, and increased the use of electronic tagging. Labour haven't done a jot to make prison conditions more onerous, or to impose hard labour. They're fanatical opponents of the death penalty, and love "liberal intervention".

Labout talk "tough", might convince lots of people they're somehow right-wing, or, bizarrely, conservative, but they're left-wing authoritarians through and through.

The original Fabians, defended the Stalinist show trials and the Soviet Union. The Fabians, on paper, at least believed in a socialist system however it was evolution not revolution under their slogan 'The inevitability of gradualness'. Old 'moderate' right-wing Labour types rarely wanted to overthrow capitalism, unlike the current lot however they did argue for reforms.

There's many on the right who oppose the death penalty, Richard Shepherd the Tory free-marketeer for one. So your assertion that anti capital punishment = Left is shown to be yet another baseless assertion.

The CJA introduced yet more crimes to be convicted off. 10 people at a bus stop together is by definition illegal under the CJA. Have a look again. It makes parties illegal, it makes certain music, the phrase 'repetitive beats' being specified played loudly a potential criminal offence.

 

[Azrael]

The CJA introduced yet more crimes to be convicted off. 10 people at a bus stop together is by definition illegal under the CJA. Have a look again. It makes parties illegal, it makes certain music, the phrase 'repetitive beats' being specified played loudly a potential criminal offence.

Isn't the infamous "repetitive beats" from the CJA 1994? The 10 people thing is authoritarian, which can apply to the left as much as the right; it's the total absence of punishment that explodes Labour's claims to be "tough" and right-wing.

No, being anti-capital punishment isn't exclusively left-wing, and back in the day, the likes of Clement Attlee trooped in to the lobbies to defend the gallows. But abolitionism is now an article of faith on the left; and farcically, Labour manage to combine it with launching "liberal interventionist" wars.

Labour have produced all manner of reforms since 1997, from setting up parliaments and assemblies among the kingdom's constituent nations to the McPherson Report to signing us up to the EU constitution on the sly. They've just been cunning about how they go about it.

Honestly, the worst thing you could do to them would to be to praise them for their left-wing credentials. They really don't want people to know!

 

[Fedayn]

Isn't the infamous "repetitive beats" from the CJA 1994? The 10 people thing is authoritarian, which can apply to the left as much as the right; it's the total absence of punishment that explodes Labour's claims to be "tough" and right-wing.

No, being anti-capital punishment isn't exclusively left-wing, and back in the day, the likes of Clement Attlee trooped in to the lobbies to defend the gallows. But abolitionism is now an article of faith on the left; and farcically, Labour manage to combine it with launching "liberal interventionist" wars.

Labour have produced all manner of reforms since 1997, from setting up parliaments and assemblies among the kingdom's constituent nations to the McPherson Report to signing us up to the EU constitution on the sly. They've just been cunning about how they go about it.

Honestly, the worst thing you could do to them would to be to praise them for their left-wing credentials. They really don't want people to know!

YTeah sorry, didjn't clock the 2003 afterwards. Plenty on the Left-especially rev left-will defend capital punishment. In certain 'dual power' situations so would I, both judicial and extra-judicial.

Abolitionism is an article of faith in all the mainstream parties in Europe, espeically in Britian. Interestingly I know the two sons of the Lab MP Sidney Silverman who moved the bill to abolish it in the 609's.

The EU isn't in any way 'Left', it strips workers of rights and allows the undercutting of workers T&C's, not even Centrist let alone Leftist.

Why would I prasie a party wedded to the market economy as 'Leftist'?

 

[Azrael]

Plenty on the Left-especially rev left-will defend capital punishment. In certain 'dual power' situations so would I, both judicial and extra-judicial.

Can you elaborate on this, please? I'm intrigued.

I suggested enemies of Labour praise them as left-wing as that's likely to hurt them, especially if the attacks come from the left.

 

[Fedayn]

Can you elaborate on this, please? I'm intrigued.

I suggested enemies of Labour praise them as left-wing as that's likely to hurt them, especially if the attacks come from the left.

Well, in, for eg the Spanish Revolution the forces loyal to the Republic executed fascist/Carlist/Falange sympathisers. In that scenario i'd defend such actions.

Aaah right get ya re their enemies.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Well, in, for eg the Spanish Revolution the forces loyal to the Republic executed fascist/Carlist/Falange sympathisers. In that scenario i'd defend such actions.

Aaah right get ya re their enemies.

How tolerant of you.

 

[Fedayn]

How tolerant of you.

Isn't it.

 

[Blagsta]

Never said they were. As I posted pages back, laissez faire fundamentalism isn't my thing. Even if it was, I've no interest in propping up the delusions of toy parties like UKLib.

A post-Thatcherite left-wing authoritarian party who think neoliberalism can be harnessed for left-wing ends. Now the economy has gone down the proverbial, goodness knows what economic model they'll lurch towards.

Eh?

 

[Blagsta]

I think we have different definitions of 'regulation'. The drugs trade, being that it is illegal, is regulated in its production, distribution and consumption. At all levels the drugs trade is regulated to the point where only criminals would be willing to engage in it. Effectively giving a monopoly to the unscrupulous.

As for the type of legislation that props up capital, I would put into this category patents, subsidies, tariffs, taxes that favour the rich, state transportation infrastructure, some of the 'health & safety' and environmental laws that do absolutely nothing to encourage health, safety or environmental sustainability.

All of these help raise the entry barriers of the marketplace so that independent labourers/small scale cooperatives are crowded out in favour of large capital. It is the distortion of markets that grants big business an artificial comparative advantage in efficiency and so causes them to proliferate.

Nothing to do with some people owning/having access to resources and others not then?

 

[danny la rouge]

Eh?

Good, isn't it?

 

[Blagsta]

Not a bit of it. Labour are authoritarian left. Admittedly their economic thinking -- the market can be harnessed to deliver left-wing ends -- is demented, but their preoccupations are those of the cultural left. 50% of school leavers railroaded into university, money thrown at the NHS, an ever-growing public sector, expansion of the EU's influence, punishing the (lower) middle class through the tax system, and so on.

Most strikingly, they're against selection by ability in our schools, continuing the thread begun by Crossland in The Future of Socialism.

Must say, the proposals -- abolition of tariffs, subsidies, abolition of certain health & safety laws -- sounds pretty laissez faire!

What?

 

[Blagsta]

Isn't the infamous "repetitive beats" from the CJA 1994? The 10 people thing is authoritarian, which can apply to the left as much as the right; it's the total absence of punishment that explodes Labour's claims to be "tough" and right-wing.

No, being anti-capital punishment isn't exclusively left-wing, and back in the day, the likes of Clement Attlee trooped in to the lobbies to defend the gallows. But abolitionism is now an article of faith on the left; and farcically, Labour manage to combine it with launching "liberal interventionist" wars.

Labour have produced all manner of reforms since 1997, from setting up parliaments and assemblies among the kingdom's constituent nations to the McPherson Report to signing us up to the EU constitution on the sly. They've just been cunning about how they go about it.

Honestly, the worst thing you could do to them would to be to praise them for their left-wing credentials. They really don't want people to know!

I guess the rise in the prison population and the introduction of criminal enforcement into drug work is just a figment of my imagination then.

 

[Blagsta]

Good, isn't it?

Hilarious and bizarre.

 

[Azrael]

Eh?

My thoughts exactly. Labour are incompetent. Never claimed their policies work.

And no, rise in gaol pop. and the rest isn't a figment. The return of a hard labour regime and the gallows, however, are.

 

[danny la rouge]

Hilarious and bizarre.

It suggests a solecistic understanding of both 'neoliberalism' and 'left wing'.

But hey, it lightened my day.

 

[Azrael]

It suggests a solecistic understanding of both 'neoliberalism' and 'left wing'.

Redefining the language is a feature of this thread.

If you define "left-wing" in narrow economic terms, then yes, Labour are off the hook. Just like they want to be.

 

[Blagsta]

My thoughts exactly. Labour are incompetent. Never claimed their policies work.

And no, rise in gaol pop. and the rest isn't a figment. The return of a hard labour regime and the gallows, however, are.

What?

 

[danny la rouge]

Redefining the language is a feature of this thread.

If you define "left-wing" in narrow economic terms, then yes, Labour are off the hook. Just like they want to be.

Let's do it on a bulletin board level: If you filled in the Political Compass for the Labour government, they'd be right of the y axis, and above the x axis.

 

[Blagsta]

It suggests a solecistic understanding of both 'neoliberalism' and 'left wing'.

But hey, it lightened my day.

I had to look that word up! But yes, it does.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Nothing to do with some people owning/having access to resources and others not then?

Its everything to do with some people having access to resources and others not. Or more accurately it's to do with some people having monopolised/cartelised access to them. It is my belief that the state is what promotes this cartelisation.

 

[Blagsta]

Its everything to do with some people having access to resources and others not. Or more accurately it's to do with some people having monopolised/cartelised access to them. It is my belief that the state is what promotes this cartelisation.

I never had you for a socialist!

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I never had you for a socialist!

I like to surprise

 

[Blagsta]

I like to surprise

You propose social ownership and self management of the MoP?

 

[BlueSquareThing]

Notice who uploaded those pics as well - The Freedom Association, a bigger bunch of crypto-fascist pro-apatheid strike breaking scum you would not wish to find. Not a nice sea to be swimming in oh brave libertarians.

Oddly Thatch appears to loom into view on about page 4 of the photostream as well