Libertarian Party Uk

[tangentlama]

Oh dear. There's little point in continuing a conversation with you, Knotted. You're thinking/assumptions are "all over the place". There's a huge (systems) failure on your part here. You define incorrectly, then you make assumptions - heading for a huge logic-fail. It's acutely sad to watch your car-crash reasoning.

 

[tangentlama]

I'm really curious about this one. Which anarchists are not communists? I don't mean this as a criticism of anarchists - quite the opposite.

[I can understand that not many would want to call themselves communists after Stalinist abuse of the term.]

I'm really curious about this one. Which cats are not fish? I don't mean this as a criticism of cats - quite the opposite.

[I can understand that not many cats would want to call themselves fish after Silurformes' abuse of the term.]

 

[Knotted]

Oh dear. There's little point in continuing a conversation with you, Knotted. You're thinking/assumptions are "all over the place". There's a huge (systems) failure on your part here. You define incorrectly, then you make assumptions - heading for a huge logic-fail. It's acutely sad to watch your car-crash reasoning.

I take definitions straight from anarchist theory. Everyone makes assumptions, I state mine so that they can be scrutinised.

I am really interested in who these non socialist/communist anarchists are. Individualist anarchists? I thought they were pretty fringe and close to right wing libertarianism anyway?

 

[Knotted]

I'm really curious about this one. Which cats are not fish? I don't mean this as a criticism of cats - quite the opposite.

That's very easy to answer. No cats are fish. Are no anarchists communist?

 

[tangentlama]

Only the anarcho/anarcha-communist ones.

 

[Knotted]

Only the anarcho/anarcha-communist ones.

I think my idea of communism is less specific than yours. I simply mean a society which has abolished all vestiges of capitalism and the state. I'm not particularly interested in speculating about whether there will be communes or syndicates or collectives in such a society, I'd call all three communist.

 

[Blagsta]

The libertarian right would say exactly the same thing.

Yes, and?

I'm at a loss to follow your argument tbh.

 

[Blagsta]

Really? I'm genuinely surprised.

You're genuinely surprised that anarchists are involved in direct action and strikes? You never read any history? Heard of the CNT at all?

 

[Blagsta]

I assume (maybe I shouldn't) that to oppose exploitation means the use of coercion. I assume that talking sweetly doesn't work.

You're equating self defence with coercion. Weird.

 

[Blagsta]

To repeat:



To expand:
Anarchists don't try to maximise liberty in the immediate. They have a long term strategy of communism in which to realise greater liberty. They are willing to coerce now in order to achieve greater liberty later.

I hope that's clear. I am aware that I am generalising and that anarchists are a diverse bunch and that the above is not applicable to all anarchists. I reach the above conclusion by looking at Kropotkin, who in my opinion is the most interesting and coherent anarchist theoretician. Perhaps it is an odd and dated take on anarchism...

This is not true though.

 

[Knotted]

Yes, and?

I'm at a loss to follow your argument tbh.

I'm not sure we have any disagreements.

 

[Knotted]

You're equating self defence with coercion. Weird.

Opposing exploitation is not self-defence although self-defence may be involved in opposing exploitation.

 

[Knotted]

This is not true though.

Well this is something you are going to have to argue.

 

[Knotted]

You're genuinely surprised that anarchists are involved in direct action and strikes? You never read any history? Heard of the CNT at all?

Please don't do that. I am genuinely surprised that anarchists would not agree that they socialists or communists.

 

[Blagsta]

I'm not sure we have any disagreements.

I'm still at a loss to understand what you're saying.

 

[Blagsta]

Opposing exploitation is not self-defence although self-defence may be involved in opposing exploitation.

Opposing your own exploitation is not self defence? We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

 

[Blagsta]

Well this is something you are going to have to argue.

I have.

 

[Blagsta]

Please don't do that. I am genuinely surprised that anarchists would not agree that they socialists or communists.

Hang on, it was you who was drawing the distinction! Stop going round in circles and changing the goal posts!

 

[Knotted]

Opposing your own exploitation is not self defence? We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I said, "opposing exploitation..." I did not say "opposing your own exploitation..."

 

[Knotted]

Hang on, it was you who was drawing the distinction! Stop going round in circles and changing the goal posts!

Please stop that. Its very annoying.

 

[Blagsta]

I said, "opposing exploitation..." I did not say "opposing your own exploitation..."

Anarchists would argue that opposing the exploitation of your class is also self defence. I thought you'd read the anarchist faq? All the arguments I'm using are in there.

 

[Blagsta]

Please stop that. Its very annoying.

Stop going round in circles and changing your argument then.

 

[tangentlama]

You're genuinely surprised that anarchists are involved in direct action and strikes? You never read any history? Heard of the CNT at all?

knotted is so "genuinely surprised" (!) that they ignore the historic struggles of anarchism against authoritarian communism !


To knotted:

Have you actually bothered to study anarchist theory/social science and history, knotted?

Conflating anarchists with 'communists' and 'socialists' shows an appalling lack of understanding. They may share some values/methods/ideas, but have different ways of achieving these. Anarchist collectivism and communes aren't quite the same as communist collectivism and communes.

Whilst it's possible for anarchists to work with non-authoritarian left-communists and non-state left-socialists (and there is evidence in the last 80 years this occurring) it's not possible to work with state/authoritarian/bureaucratic/hierarchical/right-wing communists and top-down socialists.

Anarchist communes and collectivism exist through reference to the needs of the collective or commune, not through reference to the needs of an external ideology.

Communist collectivism, of course, is predicated on referencing communist ideology.

 

[Blagsta]

Actually, a lot of anarchists would agree that they're socialists. I certainly describe myself as a libertarian socialist. Pretty much synonymous with anarchist as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Knotted]

Anarchists would argue that opposing the exploitation of your class is also self defence. I thought you'd read the anarchist faq? All the arguments I'm using are in there.

There are three references to self-defence in the FAQ.

All three are to do with self-defence against violence.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I assume (maybe I shouldn't) that to oppose exploitation means the use of coercion. I assume that talking sweetly doesn't work.

So to you resistance or opposition necessarily equate to the use of coercion?

 

[Knotted]

knotted is so "genuinely surprised" (!) that they ignore the historic struggles of anarchism against authoritarian communism !

Three-way misunderstanding.

 

[Blagsta]

There are three references to self-defence in the FAQ.

All three are to do with self-defence against violence.

Maybe it would help if you actually read the thing, rather than doing a quick text search on the pdf? Might help you understand it. Just a thought.

 

[Knotted]

Maybe it would help if you actually read the thing, rather than doing a quick text search on the pdf? Might help you understand it. Just a thought.

How do you know I haven't?

 

[Blagsta]

How do you know I haven't?

It's obvious from your posts! For you to be able to come up with "three references to self-defence in the FAQ" so quickly can only have been done by a pdf search. If you had actually read the thing, you would recognise the arguments I'm making about solidarity.

waits whil knotted searches the pdf for references to solidarity