Libertarian Party Uk

[Knotted]

Rather like building a whole, integrated organism entirely from cancer cells and having to keep messing with it the whole time to stop it imploding.

Good metaphor. I wonder what Rohen makes of the fact that free competition has to be introduced via the state.

 

[DotCommunist]

If I want to sell something, I don't want to be TOLD what price I may sell it for - I will get the best price I can - as would anyone.

If anyone wishes to state EXACTLY what it is they don't like about Libertarianism, then please feel free.

If the product you are selling is textiles sourced from sweatshop labour, it is immoral.

If the workers demand better living and working conditions and then these demands TELL the seller that he must drop his profit margin, well what then? Then the army and the bully boys move in.

It's cheaper to crush a few rebellions once or twice than it is to agree to pay workers more and improve the working H&S conditions.

Unfettered capital is a monster that has proven again and again that individuals are so much chaff compared to the wheat of profit

 

[Gmart]

Not necessarily. Unfettered capitalism may lead to more slavery in the immediate but it may also lead to a more insecure capitalism. Modern capitalism needs to be regulated otherwise it would tend to monopoly and stagnation and revolution.

^^^ This

Well certainly monopoly and stagnation - I don't think the UK COULD have a revolution - too many people sitting around whingeing rather than actually creating an alternative.

At least on this the Libertarian Party is one up on most - tho I think some of their policies such as isolationism outside Europe are just foolhardy, others such as transparency for lobbyists are long overdue...

And although sweat shops are hardly a general example of the market - I would suggest that most people would prefer a job and living to starving in the fields as is often the choice.

I would suggest that most economic exchanges have no loser in the way DC would prefer to emphasise. If I want to buy some milk and I go to the local farmer and buy some, then who has lost? I am happy with milk and he is happy with my money. QED

 

[DotCommunist]

The very nature of economic exchanges under a capitalist systems work so that both parties do their very best to do the opposite party over.

 

[Gmart]

The very nature of economic exchanges under a capitalist systems work so that both parties do their very best to do the opposite party over.

The farmer is still in business and doing really quite well, while my milk is lovely - no loser here

 

[Azrael]

The very nature of economic exchanges under a capitalist systems work so that both parties do their very best to do the opposite party over.

Or co-coperate to the advantage of both. If they are competing, with regulation, both can have a decent chance of a reasonable compromise. It certainly trounces all the available alternatives.

 

[DotCommunist]

The farmer is still in business and doing really quite well, while my milk is lovely - no loser here

so small scale local exchanges don't display the sort of disgusting inequalities we see on a global level. Thats a cry for small style council communistic practises, not a 'let em all loose' cry for unfettered markets. A hell of a lot of the the limits on capital have been fucking hard won, and apply to western societies only. Child labour and endemic corruption is still the norm in most of the world.

 

[DotCommunist]

Or co-coperate to the advantage of both. If they are competing, with regulation, both can have a decent chance of a reasonable compromise. It certainly trounces all the available alternatives.

I've no problem with competing workers collectives so long as the workers involved are not expected to work for subsistence level wages in dangerous enviroments for the profit of a minority at the top.

 

[Azrael]

So far as I'm aware there's nothing to stop a few thousand workers pooling their capital and making a go of it right now. I'd welcome it if they succeeded; such moves have the potential to sire a new economic system.

 

[Gmart]

so small scale local exchanges don't display the sort of disgusting inequalities we see on a global level. Thats a cry for small style council communistic practises, not a 'let em all loose' cry for unfettered markets. A hell of a lot of the the limits on capital have been fucking hard won, and apply to western societies only. Child labour and endemic corruption is still the norm in most of the world.

Your extreme is as improbable as the right wing extreme some attribute to me. I am not arguing for unfettered capitalism, go back only a few posts and you will notice my support for regulation.

i am all for decentralisation and anti-corruption laws among many others. I also (unlike the Libertarian party UK) accept that Europe is stronger standing together and aligning their laws for the good of all. If we refuse to acknowledge the global world we live in, we will only have ourselves to blame as we become less and less able to make a living while those around us cooperate with each other against us.

So a mixed economy, with local and international - and a decent Europe-wide regulatory system which enables people rather than shackling them.

Of course sticking your fingers in your ears while reciting your favourite (flawed) Marxist quotes might make you feel a bit better about this, but will have precisely no effect on any one else.

 

[DotCommunist]

So far as I'm aware there's nothing to stop a few thousand workers pooling their capital and making a go of it right now. I'd welcome it if they succeeded; such moves have the potential to sire a new economic system.

You don't have any capital to pool when you are working minimum wage, indeed you are likely one step ahead of the baliffs wrt credit.

 

[DotCommunist]

Your extreme is as improbable as the right wing extreme some attribute to me. I am not arguing for unfettered capitalism, go back only a few posts and you will notice my support for regulation.

i am all for decentralisation and anti-corruption laws among many others. I also (unlike the Libertarian party UK) accept that Europe is stronger standing together and aligning their laws for the good of all. If we refuse to acknowledge the global world we live in, we will only have ourselves to blame as we become less and less able to make a living while those around us cooperate with each other against us.

So a mixed economy, with local and international - and a decent Europe-wide regulatory system which enables people rather than shackling them.

Of course sticking your fingers in your ears while reciting your favourite (flawed) Marxist quotes might make you feel a bit better about this, but will have precisely no effect on any one else.

Marx would have crucified me as a lily livered liberal.

'Refusal to acknowledge' is a very telling phrase. In opposing geo-political inequalities as well as local inequalities one does not refuse to acknowledge so much as totally oppose and seek to change.

 

[Azrael]

You don't have any capital to pool when you are working minimum wage, indeed you are likely one step ahead of the baliffs wrt credit.

There are plenty of people working above minimum wage. They could set up a collective company, re-invest most of the profits, and subsidise entry for people on a minimum wage.

Such a company would be very hard to compete with, not being burned with the need to provide substantial dividends for its shareholders.

 

[Gmart]

I love the anti market lot. they complain about relatively unusual extremes which seem crazy (such as U2 charging so much for their concert tickets) but then happily go down to Sainsbury's and fill up their basket with food they want thus giving money to farmers who are also often making a good living.

The market is self-regulating thru supply and demand and there are good regulatory systems in place - sometimes a bit too many. For example it is illegal to sell milk straight from the cow in this country (tho not in many other countries in the EU).

The plain fact is that the market mostly works very effectively. And boy do the antis hate this...!!!

 

[DotCommunist]

There are plenty of people working above minimum wage. They could set up a collective company, re-invest most of the profits, and subsidise entry for people on a minimum wage.

Such a company would be very hard to compete with, not being burned with the need to provide substantial dividends for its shareholders.

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

But when the outsourcing of labour/products allows unscrupulous businesses to source from countries where 13 hour shifts and child labour are available, the ethical business cannot compete. Save for a small minority of fair trade type brands who rely on the magnanimity of m/c people with a conscience.

 

[DotCommunist]

The plain fact is that the market mostly works very effectively. And boy do the antis hate this...!!!

Yah, tell that to the workers in Special Economic Zones. I bet they fucking love the idea that they're getting a fair shake.

 

[Azrael]

But when the outsourcing of labour/products allows unscrupulous businesses to source from countries where 13 hour shifts and child labour are available, the ethical business cannot compete.

I'm sure it could compete in high-end sectors, or on ethical grounds. If slave-labour in foreign parts is the problem, I'll sign up to the campaign to have it abolished, but so far as I know the Left isn't pushing for the business model I envisage.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm sure it could compete in high-end sectors, or on ethical grounds. If slave-labour in foreign parts is the problem, I'll sign up to the campaign to have it abolished, but so far as I know the Left isn't pushing for the business model I envisage.

There are many groups you could sign up to wrt abolition of slave labour etc.

I wondered how long the mythical 'Left' would take to be invoked. Like the Right it is a large collection of broadly aligned groups in constant internal conflict. Opposing the inequality and downright murderous practises of modern capitalist's global strategies would not be out of place in the political thinking of a one nation patrician tory tbf.

 

[Blagsta]

Mmmm. No I'm being unfair to the right wing libertarians in that last post. Its so easy to do . They are incoherent when it comes to laws protecting liberty, but otherwise its perfectly clear what it is they're about.

You're changing your argument again!

I think right wing libertarians maximise try to maximise liberty for everyone equally. Its only the rich who benefit from this. Liberty is a shitty thing.

Errrr...what?

Thankfully anarchists don't try to maximise liberty in the immediate. If they did then they would have no role in the class struggle.

Again, what?


I don't understand most of your posts knotted tbh. Maybe I'm thick or something.

 

[Azrael]

Opposing the inequality and downright murderous practises of modern capitalist's global strategies would not be out of place in the political thinking of a one nation patrician tory tbf.

I'm no patrician, even if I wanted to be, but I am a One Nation conservative, and do oppose them. My break with liberalism came when I decided that market-worship is a chimera, and the invisible hand is invisible because it doesn't exist.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm no patrician, even if I wanted to be, but I am a One Nation conservative, and do oppose them. My break with liberalism came when I decided that market-worship is a chimera, and the invisible hand is invisible because it doesn't exist.

Then you should be the enemy of global capital too, and join the left in tearing down the neoliberal atrocities of modern politics

(I promise you'll be second, maybe third against the wall. You'll get a fag and a litre of vodka beforehand, but thats all I can swing you)

 

[Azrael]

Then you should be the enemy of global capital too, and join the left in tearing down the neoliberal atrocities of modern politics

No ta. I'll go with a paraphrase of Churcill's line about democracy: capitalism is the worst system yet devised, apart from all the others that have been tried from time to time. It's replacement will emerge by evolution, not design, and succeed by the same means.

Oh, and I'd prefer a gallon of real ale and a Cuban cigar, please. A Webley revolver or a pause between "aim" and "fire" would be nice. About sixty years should do it.

 

[DotCommunist]

No ta. I'll go with a paraphrase of Churcill's line about democracy: capitalism is the worst system yet devised, apart from all the others that have been tried from time to time. It's replacement will emerge by evolution, not design, and succeed by the same means.

Oh, and I'd prefer a gallon of real ale and a Cuban cigar, please. A Webley revolver or a pause between "aim" and "fire" would be nice. About sixty years should do it.

Haw, evolution doesn't really apply to the political and social turmoils of our current societies, one is on dodgy ground applying it to anything save geological scale genetic drifts.

Political ideologies are not comparable at all, and churchill was a dodgy fucking 'lets gas the kurds' cunt anyway

 

[Azrael]

Haw, evolution doesn't really apply to the political and social turmoils of our current societies, one is on dodgy ground applying it to anything save geological scale genetic drifts.

Evolution in the same sense that capitalism evolved from mercantilism; a pragmatic development that succeeds and adapts from the ground up.

As for Churchill's alleged fondness for gassing Kurds, the alternative was aerial machine-gunning, and he specified a non-lethal gas. No such gas existed and the idea was shelved. Another of his crackpot projects. It was a lot closer to riot control by tear gas than Halabja.

How do you see the change from capitalism to its replacement? (In a non-revolutionary way, if possible.)

 

[DotCommunist]

Evolution in the same sense that capitalism evolved from mercantilism; a pragmatic development that succeeds and adapts from the ground up.

As for Churchill's alleged fondness for gassing Kurds, the alternative was aerial machine-gunning, and he specified a non-lethal gas. No such gas existed and the idea was shelved. Another of his crackpot projects. It was a lot closer to riot control by tear gas than Halabja.

arghh you cannot apply evolution to political and social changes, it sets up this false idea that one idea of governance progresses from the other by natural process, and it ignores the fact that that such changes occur on a short scale completely alien to 'evolution' as proposed in the biological sense. Very misleading.

As for that pissheids ideas about gas, well, thank god neither he nor Hitler dared it- Didn't stop the mass production of disney masks and the ramping up of fear needed to keep the w/c convinced of IMMINENT GAS DEATH did it?

 

[DotCommunist]

How do you see the change from capitalism to its replacement? (In a non-revolutionary way, if possible.)

I don't, we will exhaust the resources and end up as neo-savages in small scale hunter gatherer societies practicing primitive communism.

Pray some sorts stay alive long enough that our grandkids can tend the waste management systems of nuclear power stations.

 

[Azrael]

arghh you cannot apply evolution to political and social changes, it sets up this false idea that one idea of governance progresses from the other by natural process, and it ignores the fact that that such changes occur on a short scale completely alien to 'evolution' as proposed in the biological sense. Very misleading.

I think "evolution" is a fair description. Not exact, but as close as analogies get. Of course human agency went into capitalism, but it wasn't plotted out on a theoretical level in advance. It developed bit-by-bit, instead of being imposed by the state according to a pre-determined plan. Put it this way: the board of the Dutch East India company didn't sit down c. 1600 and say, "Comrades, mercantilism is dead; I give you, capitalism!"

As for that pissheids ideas about gas, well, thank god neither he nor Hitler dared it- Didn't stop the mass production of disney masks and the ramping up of fear needed to keep the w/c convinced of IMMINENT GAS DEATH did it?

You think the British government's concerns about gas attacks (made long before Churchill returned to office) weren't prudent or justified?

 

[Azrael]

I don't, we will exhaust the resources and end up as neo-savages in small scale hunter gatherer societies practicing primitive communism.

Pray some sorts stay alive long enough that our grandkids can tend the waste management systems of nuclear power stations.

Crikey, and I thought I was pessimistic at times!

 

[DotCommunist]

I think "evolution" is a fair description. Not exact, but as close as analogies get. Of course human agency went into capitalism, but it wasn't plotted out on a theoretical level in advance. It developed bit-by-bit, instead of being imposed by the state according to a pre-determined plan. Put it this way: the board of the Dutch East India company didn't sit down c. 1600 and say, "Comrades, mercantilism is dead; I give you, capitalism!"

You think the British government's concerns about gas attacks (made long before Churchill returned to office) weren't prudent or justified?

Given the proven inaccuracy of gas attacks in W1 I'm surprised either dared wave it around like a credible weapon tbh.

And yes, evolution is a completely misleading term when talking about short term political developments. It refers to geological timeframes and has no place in discussions about short scale political developments.

 

[Azrael]

Gas can linger in confined spaces (as it sometimes did in the trenches) and the government was in a panic. This was the age of Stanley Baldwin's, "The bomber will always get through." Given that the government ran up thousands of cardboard coffins in secret, and gas masks weren't cheap to make and distribute -- and, of course, that they were very reluctant to go to war in the first place -- I don't find it credible that it was about stoking up fear.

As capitalism developed over some three centuries, I don't think it's a short term political development. What word would your prefer to "evolution"?