LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[Magnus McGinty]

I don’t think it should be an option. It’s necessary to have an overview of religion IMO. Not to indoctrinate but to inform

We’ll have to agree to disagree that it’s ‘necessary’ to learn that in a school setting.
All we did was piss about in RE.

 

[Orang Utan]

We’ll have to agree to disagree that it’s ‘necessary’ to learn that in a school setting.

Why isn’t it ‘necessary’? Surely it’s essential for children to be knowledgeable about different faiths and beliefs for them to become fully rounded human beings?
It’s as irresponsible to duck out of that as it is to duck out of LGBT issues

 

[MickiQ]

LGBT matters are for the parents. Religion is for you to decide when you are old enough to understand.

A friend sent us a photo of their seven year old daughter in a 'wedding dress' heading for their confirmation. RC. I didn't know how to respond.

That will be first communion, we've been a couple of them with the girls dressed up like little brides and the boys in little suits struck me as a tad creepy be honest. And of course Mrs Q herself went through it. (Failed to make a good Catholic out of her)
It's optional though not mandatory, ours were christened in an RC church primarily to shut MiL up but are no more religious than we are. Neither of the grandsons have even been christened, Eldest asked both the local CoE and RC about it (again mostly because MiL kept asking) and both said the parents will have to attend regularly first. Eldest said bollocks to that, it's the only thing that she and her grandma have ever fell out about.

 

[InArduisFouette]

imagine reading this thread and thinking ‘this would be a perfect place to talk about my prostrate examination’

that;s the problem with being 'Gender Critical' you have an overiding need to discuss and fantasise aobut your own or others' Genitalia... in any other context it would quite correctly be called out as the paraphilia it clearly is

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Why isn’t it ‘necessary’? Surely it’s essential for children to be knowledgeable about different faiths and beliefs for them to become fully rounded human beings?
It’s as irresponsible to duck out of that as it is to duck out of LGBT issues

LGBT issues should be taught in schools imo. My son’s sister is bi (with a preference for females) and I’m glad that school and society more generally isn’t the shit show it was in the 70s and 80s and hence she was very comfortable coming out.
And yet you’re arguing that homophobic religious scriptures should be mandatory alongside that?

 

[InArduisFouette]

Jesus fuck what is it with this topic that makes people's brains drain out?

transphobia rots your brain you only need to see G linehan as an example of that

 

[InArduisFouette]

This is utter nonsense.

I don't agree with everything Spymaster has posted on this thread, but your accusations are groundless.

This sort of nonsense has contributed almost as much of some of the more extreme gender critical stuff to making any thread around transgender issues the shit show it almost inevitably becomes.

Maybe you should stick to ranting at people who use their indicators "unnecessarily" from now on.

Ok thanks for confirming you are both a transphobe and someone who seemingly has difficulties with basic English Comprehension

 

[Magnus McGinty]

How to make friends and influence people. You could learn a lot from reading smokedout’s posts, that are difficult to disagree with; rather than running about calling everyone transphobes.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

LGBT issues should be taught in schools imo. My son’s sister is bi (with a preference for females) and I’m glad that school and society more generally isn’t the shit show it was in the 70s and 80s and hence she was very comfortable coming out.
And yet you’re arguing that homophobic religious scriptures should be mandatory alongside that?

I'm pretty sure OU isn't arguing for teaching them as 'the truth' or anything like that. I'd agree with him that like it or not religion is still a massively important thing in society across the world so surely kids should be taught about what religions are, where they come from, what they believe etc. That's very different from trying to drill scripture into kids which I agree isn't on.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I'm pretty sure OU isn't arguing for teaching them as 'the truth' or anything like that. I'd agree with him that like it or not religion is still a massively important thing in society across the world so surely kids should be taught about what religions are, where they come from, what they believe etc. That's very different from trying to drill scripture into kids which I agree isn't on.

Capitalism is a massively important part of society but nobody explained economics to us. Or the other side of the coin. I had to read those things myself and a large part of society appear to be completely unaware of the reasons why they’re being robbed from and lied to.
Perhaps religion has a place alongside Greek mythology and the likes in primary school to give folk awareness but not as forced major studies.

 

[InArduisFouette]

How to make friends and influence people. You could learn a lot from reading smokedout’s posts, that are difficult to disagree with; rather than running about calling everyone transphobes.

no Magnus , I'm not calling everyone transphobes, , just the transphobes

now get back under your bridge

 

[Magnus McGinty]

no Magnus , I'm not calling everyone transphobes, , just the transphobes

now get back under your bridge

To what ends though? Sure, most folk don’t want to be labelled as a bigot, especially on here, but there has to be more than one person pointing the finger for it to actually carry any weight.

 

[Orang Utan]

LGBT issues should be taught in schools imo. My son’s sister is bi (with a preference for females) and I’m glad that school and society more generally isn’t the shit show it was in the 70s and 80s and hence she was very comfortable coming out.
And yet you’re arguing that homophobic religious scriptures should be mandatory alongside that?

you’re making out that I’m advocating the proselytising of one particular faith. I don’t know why. I am advocating education about religious belief, in the same way you would educate people about philosophical schools of thought, historiography, anthropology, politics etc

 

[andysays]

no Magnus , I'm not calling everyone transphobes, , just the transphobes

now get back under your bridge

 

[littlebabyjesus]

you’re making out that I’m advocating the proselytising of one particular faith. I don’t know why. I am advocating education about religious belief, in the same way you would educate people about philosophical schools of thought, historiography, anthropology, politics etc

You used the word 'theology' tbf. That tends to be associated with the exegesis of particular religious texts. Education in religious belief rather than education about religious belief.

When I was at school, we had a fair bit of education in religious belief, especially at primary school. I don't want that in schools.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You used the word 'theology' tbf. That tends to be associated with the exegesis of particular religious texts. Education in religious belief rather than education about religious belief.

When I was at school, we had a fair bit of education in religious belief, especially at primary school. I don't want that in schools.

Yes, I agree with this. I have no problem with folk learning about faiths and cultures. Much like LGBT being taught in schools it’s about understanding and respecting differences. That didn’t happen back in the 70s and 80s.

 

[Orang Utan]

You used the word 'theology' tbf. That tends to be associated with the exegesis of particular religious texts. Education in religious belief rather than education about religious belief.

When I was at school, we had a fair bit of education in religious belief, especially at primary school. I don't want that in schools.

I meant the study of religions. My bad.

 

[Orang Utan]

We had this at my middle and high schools in the early 80s to early 90s - RE. Did this not happen across the board? We were taught about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism etc. Not a huge amount, but it was there. We were encouraged to discuss them. Only one of our teachers was explicit about their own faith, but they didn’t try to convert us

 

[Magnus McGinty]

We had this at my middle and high schools in the early 80s to early 90s - RE. Did this not happen across the board? We were taught about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism etc. Not a huge amount, but it was there. We were encouraged to discuss them. Only one of our teachers was explicit about their own faith, but they didn’t try to convert us

I assume you’re the same age as me, or perhaps slightly younger, but no it was just the Bible we learned about. And the school wasn’t particularly aligned. But was probably Protestant. After all, there was Catholic primaries and a Catholic secondary for the other lot. Still is.
We didn’t have middle schools.

 

[ouirdeaux]

I've always felt that teaching religion as part of history -- along with how one evaluates sources -- would be the most effective way of discouraging anyone from signing up to any particular one.

 

[Orang Utan]

I assume you’re the same age as me, or perhaps slightly younger, but no it was just the Bible we learned about. And the school wasn’t particularly aligned. But was probably Protestant. After all, there was Catholic primaries and a Catholic secondary for the other lot. Still is.
We didn’t have middle schools.

Did you grow up in Scotland? We didn’t have sectarianism in Leeds. Our only exposure to church was if you joined the Cub Scouts.

 

[lazythursday]

I remember learning the basics (and it was very basic) about the main religions, even including Shinto, at about age 13/14 in RE. Mid 1980s comprehensive school. Having said that RE was the lesson where you pissed about and took no notice of the subject so it wasn't a lot of use.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I remember learning the basics (and it was very basic) about the main religions, even including Shinto, at about age 13/14 in RE. Mid 1980s comprehensive school. Having said that RE was the lesson where you pissed about and took no notice of the subject so it wasn't a lot of use.

Yep, definitely this. I remember it being taught pretty badly tbh, with a big emphasis on Christianity, but nobody took it seriously. It wasn't something anyone was going to do exams in.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I wouldn’t object to it being a GCSE option. But those hours could have been better spent learning something to get me a job than forced sky pixie bollocks. Plus back in my day they only taught Christianity. The few Muslim pupils there were would have to wait outside the classroom, wasting their learning time also.

Yes. I can't remember clearly what went on at 1970s ILEA primary school (in what was then a not very multi-cultural bit of SE London) - we had assembly most days which involved a hymn or two, and a bit of light C of E flavoured religion, we did things like a nativity play, and there was a carol service at the local C of E church, I can't remember how optional that was. I don't remember any kids opting out / waiting outside for any of it, but not entirely sure there were many (obvious) kids from other faiths there at that time.

At 1980s secondary school, kids who were non-Christian (presume they had to have a note from parent rather than just say so) had to wait outside assembly until after the hymns and all that stuff then walk in at the end for the head to do the information / notices / collective bollockings bit. We had RE for the first 2 or 3 years (think it was just one lesson a week) which was working through the Bible - the non-Christian kids were allowed to read or do their homework or something as long as they weren't obviously pissing about. We had maybe a few lessons towards the end of the last year that were 'comparative religion' which they did take part in, but I picked up a bit of a 'ok, we've done the real stuff, this is what those weird foreigners believe in' vibe from the teacher - not outright piss-taking, but it didn't seem to be taken all that seriously. i can't remember if it was even an option at O-level or not. I know I didn't do it.

I don’t think it should be an option. It’s necessary to have an overview of religion IMO. Not to indoctrinate but to inform

Yes - I don't think there's anything wrong with letting kids know what the major faiths (and maybe some of the minor ones) believe / do, as well as exploring alternative views (within reason - maybe satanism might not go down well with the daily mail) but more about mutual understanding and respect rather than teaching that one particular religion / denomination of it is 'fact' or 'right'

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Did you grow up in Scotland? We didn’t have sectarianism in Leeds. Our only exposure to church was if you joined the Cub Scouts.

No, Teesside. Does Leeds not have Catholic schools? There was no sectarianism in my home town. Obviously there was some childish hatred at one point between groups. But it was based upon being in different schools rather than sectarianism. And we all ended up being mates in adulthood.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

i think most places have a smallish number of catholic schools, C of E schools are possibly rarer (i'm aware of some at primary level) - think there's a difference between 'protestant' as in vaguely C of E (as in the sort of religion in most 'non denominational' state schools) and 'protestant' as it can be in scotland and n ireland

 

[Orang Utan]

No, Teesside. Does Leeds not have Catholic schools? There was no sectarianism in my home town. Obviously there was some childish hatred at one point between groups. But it was based upon being in different schools rather than sectarianism. And we all ended up being mates in adulthood.

Of course it had Catholic schools. I just don’t remember there being any us & them feelings. Protestants and Catholics were just two branches of Christianity

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i think most places have a smallish number of catholic schools, C of E schools are possibly rarer (i'm aware of some at primary level) - think there's a difference between 'protestant' as in vaguely C of E (as in the sort of religion in most 'non denominational' state schools) and 'protestant' as it can be in scotland and n ireland

I noticed a few years ago when visiting my parents that the infant and junior schools I went to now had big 'Church of Wales' signs on them. While we had prayers and some religious instruction, I managed to attend those schools without ever being aware that they were Church of Wales. There has definitely been a conscious recolonisation of schools by religion in the last 25 years or so. It's not good.

 

[Orang Utan]

I remember learning the basics (and it was very basic) about the main religions, even including Shinto, at about age 13/14 in RE. Mid 1980s comprehensive school. Having said that RE was the lesson where you pissed about and took no notice of the subject so it wasn't a lot of use.

I enjoyed RE cos it was basically a debating club - a proto Urban75!

 

[xenon]

We had this at my middle and high schools in the early 80s to early 90s - RE. Did this not happen across the board? We were taught about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism etc. Not a huge amount, but it was there. We were encouraged to discuss them. Only one of our teachers was explicit about their own faith, but they didn’t try to convert us

ep. At secondary school mainly. A series of little books called things like the Way of the Jews, Way of Islam etc.

I'd have been about 12, 13 and kinda hated it cos thought it was all tosh. No problem with it being taught along the lines of understanding the broad outline of different faiths, customs etc though, I was just a ansi tean.