LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[likesfish]

relegious and cultural groups who want to normalise bigatory towards sexual minorites really ought to be forced to recite this.
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Majority of the UK is non relegious not atheist it's simply not a question that occurs to most people.
now if some fantatic gives somebody in power an Excuse to start a crack down on current experience their God won't save them


Philosopher Karl Popper described the paradox of tolerance as the seemingly counterintuitive idea that “in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance.” Essentially, if a so-called tolerant society permits the existence of intolerant philosophies, it is no longer tolerant.

yeah your religious beliefs end at your nose, you want people to tolerate your weird minority ideas? Better get with the programme and tolerate GLBT+ Atheists and everybody else who doesn't believe what you belive. keep your bigatory between fellow believers because there's a lot more of us and if you don't want to play nice you will lose.

 

[Aladdin]

My son was primary school age when he first met a trans friend of mine who was transitioning and who's gender presentation fluctuated. Later he asked if that person was a man or a woman. I said something like she'd been born a man but didn't like it and preferred to be seen as a woman. My son nodded and went okay then went back to his lego.

It's pretty easy really. It's adults who get in a mess about this stuff, not kids.

Yes. But in reality that is the easy part.

when an 11 yr old asks specific questions about how someone goes from being a female to male .. physically.. and they want to know what the process is..then you need to be more considered in the answer given. So a teacher has to decide..(because this wont be in the RSE curriculum) whether to tell the 11 yr old about hormone treatments and surgery. And then that leads to more questions. I remember a 15yr old girl in my class who wanted to trans to male. She asked to discuss it and I gave her time to chat with me quietly any time she wanted. She actually researched into the process and how she might go about this change. I gave her time to do this. None of this had anything to do with the RSE program. But she needed someone to sound off and talk with.

Where I worked we decided that an educational psychologist would be the best person to teach RSE for teens because they may be better at providing extra guidance and help to those children who needed extra help.

 

[Sweet FA]

I'm curious Spymaster, what do you think kids in primary school are in the main being taught about sex and gender? It's really not difficult to explain to kids that some boys are happier being seen as girls and some girls are happier being seen as boys and some people sort of see themselves in the middle. That's just a very basic fact and primary school RSE doesn't go much beyond that..

If you believe that any girl who says she likes football will immediately be told she is a literal boy, transed by the school in secret and then coerced onto a puberty blockers and surgery at the first opportunity then that is not happening. It's a conspiracy theory. It's nonsense. And that's why it's important kids receive a balanced education about such things that is not swayed by whatever moral panic the Daily Mail happens to be stoking at the time.

* abandons half written post *

^ All that basically.

 

[Spymaster]

So if a kid asks a teacher if it's okay for a man to have a boyfriend the teacher should say in my opinion that's okay but others disagree? Or perhaps no, I don't think it's okay but some others might disagree?

I think telling kids the truth should always be the starting point.

"Many men have boyfriends and many women have girlfriends. Generally speaking, as a society in the UK we now find that perfectly acceptable, but that hasn't always been the case and some people still disagree with it".

 

[Santino]

I think telling kids the truth should always be the starting point.

"Many men have boyfriends and many women have girlfriends. Generally speaking, as a society in the UK we now find that perfectly acceptable, but that hasn't always been the case and some people still disagree with it".

Ban this bigotted filth

 

[Sweet FA]

I think telling kids the truth should always be the starting point.

"Many men have boyfriends and many women have girlfriends. Generally speaking, as a society in the UK we now find that perfectly acceptable, but that hasn't always been the case and some people still disagree with it".

You could add that caveat to pretty much everything taught in schools. How irrelevant and outdated do the beliefs have to be before you stop prefacing with "generally speaking"?

I'd add to your sentence "those people who disagree are wrong and there are laws in place to protect the rights of LGBT people". You can still acknowledge that there are bigots and that views were different in the past.

If that contradicts what their parents are saying well

As a society we have decided it's "perfectly acceptable" Not "generally speaking"

 

[Spymaster]

You could add that caveat with pretty much everything taught in schools. How irrelevant and outdated do the beliefs have to be before you stop prefacing with "generally speaking"?

I'd add to your sentence "those people who disagree are wrong and there are laws in place to protect the rights of LGBT people". You can still acknowledge that there are bigots and that views were different in the past.

If that contradicts what their parents are saying well

As a society we have decided it's "perfectly acceptable" Not "generally speaking"

Yeah, no big problem with that although any teacher worth a light would seek to explain why they were wrong.

How would you answer "Can a man become a woman?"

 

[Sweet FA]

Ban this bigotted filth

Well it is a bit tbf. (Though I'm not calling Spy a filthy bigot).

 

[Santino]

Well it is a bit tbf.

It doesn't condemn those who don't agree with being gay. I don't think I'd call that bigotry though.

 

[smokedout]

But why the need for a caveat outside of a social history lesson? Is it only LGBTQ people this should apply to or should it apply if children ask questions about race, religious or sex equality as well?

 

[Aladdin]

The lesson all kids need to really learn is that they are accepted 100%

 

[Sweet FA]

Yeah, no big problem with that although any teacher worth a light would seek to explain why they were wrong.

Of course.

How would you answer "Can a man become a woman?"

Yes.


(Though as you say above "any teacher worth a light would (then) seek to explain". That's kind of the job.)

Look this stuff isn't happening in theory - it's being played out in schools and playgrounds across the country. There are trans parents, brothers and sisters in several families at my school. We're not unusual. I know and have spoken to school staff who find it difficult to understand and process. We'll only reach acceptance and understanding by talking about it. If we could do that without knocking lumps off each other that would be good.

 

[Sweet FA]

It doesn't condemn those who don't agree with being gay. I don't think I'd call that bigotry though.

Nobody mentioned bigotry until you did.

 

[Spymaster]

Yes.

"Can a woman have a willy and balls?"

 

[Sweet FA]

I'm not playing mate

 

[Spymaster]

It's not a game though.

That would surely be right around the corner and you've already given a highly contested answer to the first question.

Anyone who thinks that it's bigoted to point that out is bonkers.

 

[youbeauty]

I think telling kids the truth should always be the starting point.

"Many men have boyfriends and many women have girlfriends. Generally speaking, as a society in the UK we now find that perfectly acceptable, but that hasn't always been the case and some people still disagree with it".

Why so mealy mouthed? Why not just say "yes, it's fine for a man to have a boyfriend"? If a child asked whether it was ok for a black woman to date a white man, I doubt you'd answer "Many black woman have white boyfriends. Generally speaking, as a society in the UK we now find that perfectly acceptable, but that hasn't always been the case and some people still disagree with it".

 

[Sweet FA]

It's not a game though.

That would surely be right around the corner and you've already given a highly contested answer to the first question.

Anyone who thinks that it's bigoted to point that out is bonkers.

(stop editing while I'm answering dammit)

I hear you and though I know it's not a game, you are treating it like a game of gotcha though. And enough with the bigoted bit - I've never suggested that apart from in a light hearted josh re: Santino's comment. Personally I don't think having a conversation about trans issues = bigotry. I've already pointed out rl examples why above.

I don't really agree that for a young child that willy/balls question would be right round the corner. Just as likely the question would be "why is the sky blue?", "can you survive on eating poo and bogies?" (actual question last week) or "where do you go when you die?" (Another question I've given a 'highly contentious' answer to.)

 

[Spymaster]

If a child asked whether it was ok for a black woman to date a white man, I doubt you'd answer "Many black woman have white boyfriends. Generally speaking, as a society in the UK we now find that perfectly acceptable, but that hasn't always been the case and some people still disagree with it".

I think that's a brilliant answer which gives the opportunity for a social history lesson and a condemnation of bigotry.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

"Can a woman have a willy and balls?"

I think you should fuck off right now? You've effectively denied that trans women exist, or are valid. That's the most transphobic thing you could possibly say - and its a position which undermines every single one of our rights as trans people.

 

[Spymaster]

I think you should fuck off right now? You've effectively denied that trans women exist, or are valid. That's the most transphobic thing you could possibly say - and its a position which undermines every single one of our rights as trans people.

I'm suggesting that a biological man with male genitalia does not become a woman because they say so.

I think there's space to say to the child that a biological man can choose to live as a woman, and if they choose to do so should be respected, but that's it.

If that's transphobic, so be it.

 

[smokedout]

I think that's a brilliant answer which gives the opportunity for a social history lesson and a condemnation of bigotry.

So it would be okay for a teacher to condemn a parent's religious views as bigoted if their child asked if it was okay for a man to have a boyfriend, or does this only apply to race?

There are lots of questions children might ask which would conflict with parent's religious views. Is it okay for women to use contraception? Is it okay to change your gender? Is it okay to have a relationship with someone of another religion? Is it okay for two women to fall in love?

The answer to all these questions is yes. If that child then says my Dad says it's not okay then that is when a teacher can elaborate and say some people might not believe that but as a society we accept those things are okay and have laws in place to protect them. And most importantly it's okay for you to do these things no matter what your parents believe. I couldn't really give a fuck if that offends some parents, they don't own their children. Their kids have the same entitlement to rights and protections as everyone else and they should be informed of that in the education system.

 

[Spymaster]

So it would be okay for a teacher to condemn a parent's religious views as bigoted if their child asked if it was okay for a man to have a boyfriend, or does this only apply to race?

No. See above exchange with Sweet FA.

There are lots of questions children might ask which would conflict with parent's religious views. Is it okay for women to use contraception? Is it okay to change your gender? Is it okay to have a relationship with someone of another religion? Is it okay for two women to fall in love?

It's not just about conflicting with the parents' view, it's also about giving the child a thoughtful and balanced answer.

That is rarely 'yes' or 'no'.

 

[kabbes]

I’m not a teacher and will never become one, so I’m going to leave the question of what teachers should say to the teachers. But as a non-teacher, if a child asks me, “is it okay for [something]?” (like “is it ok for a man to love a man?” Or “is it ok for a woman to become a man?”), my default response is going to be, “why do you think it might not be?” I’m not interested in imposing my answers about social issues on kids, I want to encourage them to interrogate these ideas for themselves.

 

[Spymaster]

I’m not a teacher and will never become one, so I’m going to leave the question of what teachers should say to the teachers. But as a non-teacher, if a child asks me, “is it okay for [something]?” (like “is it ok for a man to love a man?” Or “is it ok for a woman to become a man?”), my default response is going to be, “why do you think it might not be?” I’m not interested in imposing my answers about social issues on kids, I want to encourage them to interrogate these ideas for themselves.

I totally agree with this but you're still going to have to address the question sooner or later unless the kid comes out with a blinding bit of philosophy!

 

[kabbes]

I totally agree with this but you're still going to have to address the question sooner or later unless the kid comes out with a blinding bit of philosophy!

I’m alright with having a conversation with the child in Buber’s I-thou mode, rather than an I-it imposition of authority. I will happily present challenges to what I perceive as flaws in the child’s argument, if I view those as problematic. But I’m also happy to listen to their perspective and take it seriously. Before destroying it, of course.

 

[Orang Utan]

We should note here that UK law directly contradicts some of the right-wing christian beliefs about homosexuality and gender diversity. So it’s not just a matter of opinion.

 

[Santino]

We should note here that UK law directly contradicts some of the right-wing christian beliefs about homosexuality and gender diversity. So it’s not just a matter of opinion.

What if the law said something you disagreed with? What if it said that criticising Israel was anti-semitic?

 

[andysays]

That wasn't the question.

Are there any examples you can give of state funded faith schools preventing kids of different or no faith, achieving their education elsewhere?

It might be worth pointing out at this point that many/most state funded faith schools are in practice open to children of different or even no faith.

 

[Orang Utan]

What if the law said something you disagreed with? What if it said that criticising Israel was anti-semitic?

I disagree with a lot of laws, but I would be reluctant to broadcast those views in a classroom or on socials if I worked in a school and was stupid enough to to air those views where colleagues might see them.
I’m not going to answer the second question cos it’s supreme whataboutery.