LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[Aladdin]

You’re suggesting it’s simple “sex education” whereas I’m sure people like this would really like it to be taught that being gay is wrong.

This is not an accurate representation of sex ed .. even in Christian schools over here.

Our RSE programs are pretty open.
and yet there are plenty psychiatrists and psychologists and educators who have legitimate concerns about telling little 6yr old kids who are prepubescent that they can decide to be another gender...at that age.
Little kids believe adults. But nowhere in the sex ed programme are they being made aware of the actual surgeries they'd need and hormones they would require.. let alone the years of hospital and possible psychiatric help required. They're just being told that they can change sex if they want...

I believe in giving the full picture And as they get older they should know more... If a teenage kid wants to change sex and that is their desire and they're 100% certain then they should be fully informed as to how that will become reality. It should be a decision taken seriously and with a lot of care.
No 30 minute school based sex ed generic lesson should determine for a child what sex or gender a child wants to be or not.

I guess what I am saying is that this is so monumental in terms of a child's/ young person's life that a generic sex ed class should not be the influencer. Everyone knows and accepts LGBTQ+. My only concerns would be around the lack of information given to children leading some to believe they can change gender with a tablet.
Unfortunately the Sex ed programmes don't always cover that. And going outside the parameters of the prescribed course could get you sacked if someone starts complaining.

 

[Spymaster]

You’re suggesting it’s simple “sex education” whereas I’m sure people like this would really like it to be taught that being gay is wrong.

There are laws against doing that. There are also people who would like kids to be taught that black people are lazy and Jews are fraudsters. That doesn't mean we do it, or that there's the slightest prospect of it happening.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Yes. And I also think making sex education optional will lead to more unplanned pregnancies, more cases of STI's, and more ignorance around non-hetero/non-binary issues. So yeah I do think people should either deal with it, or consider their options.

It's true that unplanned teenage pregnancies have fallen massively since the 1990s when sex education became compulsory.

 

[Aladdin]

It's true that unplanned teenage pregnancies have fallen massively since the 1990s when sex education became compulsory.

Same over here.
Contraception use has increased. 90% of 18yr olds use Contraception. Acvording to stats from 2020.

 

[Spymaster]

No, I not suggesting that faith schools are a better alternative, either. But, if parents with supernatural beliefs insist on their children being educated in faith exclusive environments, such institutions should not be given state funding as they exclude most children.

So in a country where freedom of religion is a core value, and indeed a protected characteristic, you would seek to withdraw state funding from people whose religious views differ from yours.

You'll be pleased to hear that the enlightened regimes in countries like Iran and Pakistan, completely agree with you.

 

[brogdale]

Are there any state funded faith schools whose existence is preventing children of different or no faiths, from attending another?

Yes, there are state funded 'faith' schools. My point is that there shouldn't be.

 

[Spymaster]

Yes, there are state funded 'faith' schools.

That wasn't the question.

Are there any examples you can give of state funded faith schools preventing kids of different or no faith, achieving their education elsewhere?

 

[SpookyFrank]

We're not too far apart on that. More information required.

"People who's cultural views lead them to not want their children exposed to liberal sexual ideology at school, should not have children".

Discuss.

Liberal sexual ideology. What's that then? Because pointing out that gay and trans people exist and have a right to do so is not an ideological position, it's just a fact. People call it an ideology so they can attack something nebulous instead of the thing they're actually upset about, which is the existence of people they disapprove of.

Funnily enough I expected better, even of you, than to use such a dodgy trope so flippantly.

 

[nottsgirl]

This is not an accurate representation of sex ed .. even in Christian schools over here.

Our RSE programs are pretty open.
and yet there are plenty psychiatrists and psychologists and educators who have legitimate concerns about telling little 6yr old kids who are prepubescent that they can decide to be another gender...at that age.
Little kids believe adults. But nowhere in the sex ed programme are they being made aware of the actual surgeries they'd need and hormones they would require.. let alone the years of hospital and possible psychiatric help required. They're just being told that they can change sex if they want...

I believe in giving the full picture And as they get older they should know more... If a teenage kid wants to change sex and that is their desire and they're 100% certain then they should be fully informed as to how that will become reality. It should be a decision taken seriously and with a lot of care.
No 30 minute school based sex ed generic lesson should determine for a child what sex or gender a child wants to be or not.

I guess what I am saying is that this is so monumental in terms of a child's/ young person's life that a generic sex ed class should not be the influencer. Everyone knows and accepts LGBTQ+. My only concerns would be around the lack of information given to children leading some to believe they can change gender with a tablet.
Unfortunately the Sex ed programmes don't always cover that. And going outside the parameters of the prescribed course could get you sacked if someone starts complaining.

Kids are smart. The idea that telling kids transgender people exist will set them up for an unnecessary life of pain is like thinking learning about aeroplanes will cause them to go jumping out of windows willy nilly.

 

[youbeauty]

That wasn't the question.

Are there any examples you can give of state funded faith schools preventing kids of different or no faith, achieving their education elsewhere?

Absolutely, it happens all over the place. Our village primary is c of e and is the only school in the village. There are no buses at convenient times to get kids to school elsewhere so, if you don't /can't drive, you're stuck with the c of e option. Not everyone lives somewhere where there is a choice of schools.

 

[Lurdan]

We’ve been here before

Indeed we have. Kristie Higgs is one of the cases promoted by the Christian Legal Centre. They are an activist group who seek cases they can stage manage high profile legal action around, in order to promote their very socially conservative views.

That BBC article says:

Mrs Higgs shared and commented on posts which raised concerns about relationship education at her son's Church of England primary school.
Pupils were to learn about the No Outsiders In Our School programme, which is a series of books teaching the Equality Act in primary schools.

The proposed use of the 'No Outsiders in Our School' book was what triggered off the protests outside Parkfield School in Birmingham in 2019. There was a thread about it

Parents gather outside Birmingham school to protest against gay teacher

FFS. The world is going backwards A gay primary school teacher who leads diversity lessons for children said he has received threats from those who are calling for him to resign. Andrew Moffat MBE has been under fire from parents who are protesting his No Outsiders project, which teaches...

www.urban75.net

And in that thread her case came up and was discussed starting here.

That was back in 2019. So it's hardly very surprising that by now she knows how to present her views to sound as reasonable as possible.

Here is the Times report of the tribunal hearing she has been given leave to appeal
I don’t believe in gender fluidity, says Christian sacked by school - Times 22nd Sept 2020 (archived)

The mother of two had shared and commented on Facebook posts that described relationships and sex education classes as “a vicious form of totalitarianism aimed at suppressing Christianity”. (...) She told the employment tribunal in Bristol: “I believe that God created mankind as male and female and what he has created is good. He does not make mistakes. I therefore do not believe in the modern ideas of gender fluidity and transgenderism. I did not think much about this issue until it was brought up in my younger son’s primary school. I knew that there were cross-dressers and that the practice of cross-dressing had been expressly condemned in the Bible. People cannot change something that has been established by God, such as their identity as a man or a woman. I am aware that same-sex marriages are now recognised under UK law, but I believe that is contrary to God’s law, which only recognises marriages between one man and one woman.”

Mrs Higgs made her social media comments after hearing that students were to learn about the No Outsiders in Our School programme, a series of books on teaching the Equality Act in primary schools. Mrs Higgs, who posted under her maiden name, shared two posts in October 2018 to around 100 of her friends. In one she urged people to sign an online petition against making relationships education mandatory. In another, she shared an article about the rise of transgender ideology in children’s books in US schools.

“I was concerned that a lot of parents all over the country and the world simply did not know what was going on,” Mrs Higgs said in a statement. “As a Christian, I believe it is morally necessary to speak out in defence of the Bible truth when false and harmful doctrines are being promoted.” (...) Debbie Grennan, representing the school, said some of the language used in the messages Mrs Higgs shared was “extreme”. The barrister asked: “Do you believe that because of your religious views you can post anything you like, no matter how reactionary?” Mrs Higgs replied: “I believe that if it goes against the word of God, people need to know about it. I love God but I also have to follow the law of the land, but it doesn’t mean I can’t disagree.”

I'm not convinced that a belief that it is "morally necessary to speak out in defence of the Bible truth when false and harmful doctrines are being promoted" is optimal for a 'pastoral assistant'.

Is this a rare case of the Christian Legal Centre being successful in Court, as opposed to being successful at generating publicity?
Actually no. She was given leave to appeal last year as a result of representations by the Church of England
Dismissed school-worker can appeal after Archbishops’ Council intervenes - Church Times (June 20th 2023) (archived)

However Andrea Williams the Chief Executive of the Christian Legal Centre got to write a piece in the Times about the decision.
At last, Christians have rights too - Times (June 29th) 2023 (archived)

As a well practised activist she is also able to present her views to sound as reasonable as possible.
But as the Bible says:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. (Matthew 23:27)

 

[Spymaster]

Liberal sexual ideology. What's that then? Because pointing out that gay and trans people exist and have a right to do so is not an ideological position, it's just a fact. People call it an ideology so they can attack something nebulous instead of the thing they're actually upset about, which is the existence of people they disapprove of.

Funnily enough I expected better, even of you, than to use such a dodgy trope so flippantly.

This "right to exist" is a red herring. Nobody is arguing that kids should be taught that anyone doesn't have that right. However, some people don't want their kids taught about sex/sexuality/gender, by morons like you. They should be allowed to opt out.

 

[Aladdin]

Kids are smart. The idea that telling kids transgender people exist will set them up for an unnecessary life of pain is like thinking learning about aeroplanes will cause them to go jumping out of windows willy nilly.

That's not actually what I said.

 

[brogdale]

That wasn't the question.

Are there any examples you can give of state funded faith schools preventing kids of different or no faith, achieving their education elsewhere?

Can’t see where you’re going with that or what relevance it has to the issue of state funding of schools that operate exclusionary admissions policies based on the supernatural beliefs of parents.

 

[Orang Utan]

Don’t fall for this baiting, folks.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

This "right to exist" is a red herring. Nobody is arguing that kids should be taught that anyone doesn't have that right.

I feel that as you seem to be someone who is not aware of the full consequences of Section 28 and also seem unaware of the wider attacks on trans people right now (we are being attacked on every level - this does not stand in isolation) then you really should back out of this discussion.

 

[Spymaster]

Can’t see where you’re going with that or what relevance it has to the issue of state funding of schools that operate exclusionary admissions policies based on the supernatural beliefs of parents.

The point is that this country is committed to religious tolerance. That must include tolerance in education. That means children of Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, and Christian families, should have the same access to faith-based education as other children do to secular schooling.

Your language gives away your motivation with all this "supernatural" sneering. You want to curtail other people's access to religious views that you don't agree with. That's religious intolerance, pure and simple.

 

[Aladdin]

I feel that as you seem to be someone who is not aware of the full consequences of Section 28 and also seem unaware of the wider attacks on trans people right now (we are being attacked on every level - this does not stand in isolation) then you really should back out of this discussion.

It's appalling that trans people are being attacked. Really disgusts me how people turn on lgbtq+
Sorry if this has happened to you.

 

[brogdale]

The point is that this country is committed to religious tolerance. That must include tolerance in education. That means children of Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, and Christian families, should have the same access to faith-based education as other children do to secular schooling.

Your language gives away your motivation with all this "supernatural" sneering. You want to curtail other people's access to religious views that you don't agree with. That's religious intolerance, pure and simple.

Religious tolerance does not require state funding of schools that exclude children on the basis of the supernatural beliefs, (or lack), of the parents. The rest of your post is arrant nonsense.

 

[Spymaster]

Religious tolerance does not require state funding of schools that exclude children on the basis of the supernatural beliefs, (or lack), of the parents.

But it does require the forcible indoctrination of children, with views their parents may not want them taught due to cultural differences, in your world.

You are a religious intolerant.

From now on you shall be known as Ayatollahdale.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Absolutely, it happens all over the place. Our village primary is c of e and is the only school in the village. There are no buses at convenient times to get kids to school elsewhere so, if you don't /can't drive, you're stuck with the c of e option. Not everyone lives somewhere where there is a choice of schools.

In my city there is only one public secondary school not run by the academy trust from hell, and it's a Christian school. School choice is always bullshit, even in urban areas where there should be loads of choice.

 

[ouirdeaux]

That means children of Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, and Christian families, should have the same access to faith-based education as other children do to secular schooling.

They do.

Where are you drawing the line? If a parent believes that the earth is a few thousand years old, and evolution is rubbish, because that's their interpretation of the Bible, do they have the right to withdraw their child from science classes?

 

[Rob Ray]

Religious freedom is the right for you to practice your personal beliefs. A rastafarian should be allowed dreads, a Sikh their headwear, a muslim time to pray to Mecca. The creation of an institution forcing the "teachings" of religious beliefs on others, particularly minors, is no form of freedom, it's the indulgence of cult creation techniques. Which is something modern society certainly allows, but I see no reason why it should go so far as to fund the damn things with public money.

 

[Sweet FA]

telling little 6yr old kids who are prepubescent that they can decide to be another gender...at that age.

Sorry if I've misunderstood - is this part of the RSE curriculum in Ireland then?

 

[Spymaster]

They do.

Where are you drawing the line? If a parent believes that the earth is a few thousand years old, and evolution is rubbish, because that's their interpretation of the Bible, do they have the right to withdraw their child from science classes?

Yes, that's the obvious reductio extension, isn't it? Or holocaust denying parents taking their kids out of history lessons.

There's a point where we reach absurdity. My argument is that it's not in the compulsory teaching of western cultural values over Middle Eastern or Asian ones with regard to sex.

 

[smokedout]

That wasn't the question.

Are there any examples you can give of state funded faith schools preventing kids of different or no faith, achieving their education elsewhere?

There are plenty of examples of it being the only realistic choice. My primary school was a church school. The next nearest primary school was nearly 2 miles away, there was no bus and my Mum didn't drive, and that's on the edge of a city. There's plenty of rural areas with even less choice.

 

[Sweet FA]

The point is that this country is committed to religious tolerance. That must include tolerance in education. That means children of Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, and Christian families, should have the same access to faith-based education as other children do to secular schooling.

Your language gives away your motivation with all this "supernatural" sneering. You want to curtail other people's access to religious views that you don't agree with. That's religious intolerance, pure and simple.

Schools should be free of religious instruction; that doesn't mean intolerance. Teaching of religion as history/cultural studies yes - assemblies with prayers, state funded 'faith-based education', no. If Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, and Christian families want to educate their children about their religion outside of school, fine, no-one's stopping them. Most if not all of the Muslim, Sikh, Hindu children in my class go to places of worship/religious schools in the evenings/weekends.

Wrt to sex, it's not about the parents, it's about the children. They have a right to be educated about their sex, sexuality, their bodies and their emotions. To deny them that due to their parents' religious belief is harmful.

 

[Ax^]

We're not too far apart on that. More information required.

"People who's cultural views lead them to not want their children exposed to liberal sexual ideology at school, should not have children".

Discuss.

tbf for centeries Christian have be saying gay and LGBTQ people should not exist or worse ..

 

[Aladdin]

Sorry if I've misunderstood - is this part of the RSE curriculum in Ireland then?

It wasn't specifically stated.. in the old curriculum.
The new curriculum is changed now in that area.
But when I was still teaching, it was common enough for children to ask questions and the RSE curriculum does specifically mention LGBTQ+.
There have been times, when I was teaching, when I was in a position where children asked very specific questions. Sometimes these were very young children asking what Trans meant so.. yes.. there are times when a teacher might be asked about LGBTQ+ specifically.

 

[Sweet FA]

This is not an accurate representation of sex ed .. even in Christian schools over here.

Our RSE programs are pretty open.
and yet there are plenty psychiatrists and psychologists and educators who have legitimate concerns about telling little 6yr old kids who are prepubescent that they can decide to be another gender...at that age.
Little kids believe adults. But nowhere in the sex ed programme are they being made aware of the actual surgeries they'd need and hormones they would require.. let alone the years of hospital and possible psychiatric help required. They're just being told that they can change sex if they want...

I believe in giving the full picture And as they get older they should know more... If a teenage kid wants to change sex and that is their desire and they're 100% certain then they should be fully informed as to how that will become reality. It should be a decision taken seriously and with a lot of care.
No 30 minute school based sex ed generic lesson should determine for a child what sex or gender a child wants to be or not.

I guess what I am saying is that this is so monumental in terms of a child's/ young person's life that a generic sex ed class should not be the influencer. Everyone knows and accepts LGBTQ+. My only concerns would be around the lack of information given to children leading some to believe they can change gender with a tablet.
Unfortunately the Sex ed programmes don't always cover that. And going outside the parameters of the prescribed course could get you sacked if someone starts complaining.

Actually now I've read this more carefully, I think it's strawman bullshit

Though apologies Aladdin if it's true - I'd love to see the lesson plan/guidance though.