LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[Aladdin]

tbf for centeries Christian have be saying gay and LGBTQ people should not exist or worse ..

Please.. this actually is not the case anymore. I'm a Christian. And no way would I ever think or say that.

 

[Sweet FA]

very young children asking what Trans meant so.. yes.. there are times when a teacher might be asked about LGBTQ+ specifically.

That's not "telling little 6yr old kids who are prepubescent that they can decide to be another gender...at that age" at all.

 

[smokedout]

Yes, that's the obvious reductio extension, isn't it? Or holocaust denying parents taking their kids out of history lessons.

There's a point where we reach absurdity. My argument is that it's not in the compulsory teaching of western cultural values over Middle Eastern or Asian ones with regard to sex.

If parents were allowed to pick and choose what and how different subjects were taught in schools you can pretty much guarantee there would be parents pouring over the syllabus and demanding that their children are only taught things which align with their beliefs. I don't really see why RSE should be treated any differently. Schools exist to provide an education which reflects the society children will grow up in, not to reinforce parental beliefs.

 

[Santino]

Actually now I've read this more carefully, I think it's strawman bullshit

Though apologies Aladdin if it's true - I'd love to see the lesson plan/guidance though.

What should 6 year olds be taught about gender?

 

[ouirdeaux]

There's a point where we reach absurdity. My argument is that it's not in the compulsory teaching of western cultural values over Middle Eastern or Asian ones with regard to sex.

That's pretty arbitrary, though.

 

[Aladdin]

That's not "telling little 6yr old kids who are prepubescent that they can decide to be another gender...at that age" at all.

In 2024 the truth is that they can ask. Even very young children ask about this. And the truth is that now it is legally and physically possible. It's also very publicly known. LGBTQ+ is everyday everything..normal so yes..kids have questions and they are normal questions.
The teacher has to decide whether to respond or say something like "You're too young to discuss this".
If you do tell them the truth...you run the risk of a parent lascerating you or the school board disciplining you.
The RSE program does go through LGBTQ+ fully. The program moves from Primary through to second level school..but children are curious at quite a young age. And they ask about this because it's part and parcel of everyday life. But the curriculum does not span everything. Not by a long shot.

 

[smokedout]

What should 6 year olds be taught about gender?

My son was primary school age when he first met a trans friend of mine who was transitioning and who's gender presentation fluctuated. Later he asked if that person was a man or a woman. I said something like she'd been born a man but didn't like it and preferred to be seen as a woman. My son nodded and went okay then went back to his lego.

It's pretty easy really. It's adults who get in a mess about this stuff, not kids.

 

[smokedout]

In 2024 the truth is that they can ask. Even very young children ask about this. And the truth is that now it is legally and physically possible. It's also very publicly known. LGBTQ+ is everyday everything..normal so yes..kids have questions and they are normal questions.
The teacher has to decide whether to respond or say something like "You're too young to discuss this".
If you do tell them the truth...you run the risk of a parent lascerating you or the school board disciplining you.
The RSE program does go through LGBTQ+ fully. The program moves from Primary through to second level school..but children are curious at quite a young age. And they ask about this because it's part and parcel of everyday life. But the curriculum does not span everything. Not by a long shot.

If they are discussing it then they are by defintion not too young to discuss it.

 

[Spymaster]

Wrt to sex, it's not about the parents, it's about the children. They have a right to be educated about their sex, sexuality, their bodies and their emotions. To deny them that due to their parents' religious belief is harmful.

That's just an opinion though, FA. You don't know what their parent's beliefs are and you certainly can't quantify the supposed harm done by them. Parents have been educating their own kids about sex for millennia. Comp sex education has been around for a couple of decades and nobody is saying kids should have no sex education at all. Just that how they receive it should be the parents choice. They should certainly be free to opt out of their children being taught it by people like Spooky fucking Frank, who has alluded right here that people whose religious views he disagrees with, shouldn't have kids. People like that should be nowhere near the education system.

 

[Rob Ray]

The trouble generally is that teachers are not trusted to be sensible about the way they teach sensitive subjects. Which sure, some of them will get it wrong on occasion and it's worth watching out for, but this blanket line of not trusting any of them and treating rare cases as some sort of conspiratorial standard practice has gotten us in a terrible pickle where even broaching topics brought up by kids or which definitely do affect them (it's not "protecting" a six year old to pretend there's no such thing as abuse by adults, or that their uncle who used to be an aunt doesn't exist) is regarded as a threat.

Teachers are, for the most part, doing their best with rubbish pay, stupidly invasive levels of oversight and parents worked up into a frenzy by endless moral panics and culture wars. Frankly it's amazing and quite impressive so many people stick around given how much shit gets flung.

 

[Sweet FA]

What should 6 year olds be taught about gender?

The notion that there's a 30 minute gender lesson for year 1 and 2 is nonsense. Yes (very rarely tbf) young children ask - 'what does trans mean?' My answer is generally broad and age appropriate - some people don't feel comfortable or happy dressing or behaving in a certain way so some girls like to wear boys' clothes and the other way round. For loads of young children, it's dressing up.


I don't see much to disagree with in the statutory guidance tbh (this is by year 6).

• that families are important for children growing up because they can give love, security and stability.
• the characteristics of healthy family life, commitment to each other, including in times of difficulty, protection and care for children and other family members, the importance of spending time together and sharing each other’s lives.
• that others’ families, either in school or in the wider world, sometimes look different from their family, but that they should respect those differences and know that other children’s families are also characterised by love and care.
• that stable, caring relationships, which may be of different types, are at the heart of happy families, and are important for children’s security as they grow up.

• that marriage represents a formal and legally recognised commitment of two people to each other which is intended to be lifelong.
• how to recognise if family relationships are making them feel unhappy or unsafe, and how to seek help or advice from others if needed.

• how important friendships are in making us feel happy and secure, and how people choose and make friends.
• the characteristics of friendships, including mutual respect, truthfulness, trustworthiness, loyalty, kindness, generosity, trust, sharing interests and experiences and support with problems and difficulties.
• that healthy friendships are positive and welcoming towards others, and do not make others feel lonely or excluded.
• that most friendships have ups and downs, and that these can often be worked through so that the friendship is repaired or even strengthened, and that resorting to violence is never right.
• how to recognise who to trust and who not to trust, how to judge when a friendship is making them feel unhappy or uncomfortable, managing conflict, how to manage these situations and how to seek help or advice from others, if needed.
• the importance of respecting others, even when they are very different from them (for example, physically, in character, personality or backgrounds), or make different choices or have different preferences or beliefs.

• practical steps they can take in a range of different contexts to improve or support respectful relationships.
• the conventions of courtesy and manners.
• the importance of self-respect and how this links to their own
  happiness.
• that in school and in wider society they can expect to be treated with respect by others, and that in turn they should show due respect to others, including those in positions of authority.

 

[Aladdin]

If they are discussing it then they are by defintion not too young to discuss it.

I agree ... Fair enough but..curriculum isnt on the same page. And does not prescribe teachers to answer direct questions about the "how"

 

[nottsgirl]

That's just an opinion though, FA. You don't know what their parent's beliefs are and you certainly can't quantify the supposed harm done by them. Parents have been educating their own kids about sex for millennia. Comp sex education has been around for a couple of decades and nobody is saying kids should have no sex education at all. Just that how they receive it should be the parents choice. They should certainly be free to opt out of their children being taught it by people like Spooky fucking Frank, who has alluded right here that people whose religious views he disagrees with, shouldn't have kids. People like that should be nowhere near the education system.

Why is sex and relationships education any different to literacy or numeracy or science?

 

[Sweet FA]

That's just an opinion though, FA. You don't know what their parent's beliefs are and you certainly can't quantify the supposed harm done by them. Parents have been educating their own kids about sex for millennia. Comp sex education has been around for a couple of decades and nobody is saying kids should have no sex education at all. Just that how they receive it should be the parents choice. They should certainly be free to opt out of their children being taught it by people like Spooky fucking Frank, who has alluded right here that people whose religious views he disagrees with, shouldn't have kids. People like that should be nowhere near the education system.

I disagree - it's not an opinion to say that sex ed protects children & you can quantify the harm reduction. ElizabethofYork and Aladdin have both pointed out the reduction in unplanned pregnancies over the past 20 odd years.

You're right when you say I don't know what their parents' beliefs are (any of them) - all the more reason to ensure that all children get the education about sex they need at an appropriate age.

 

[smokedout]

That's just an opinion though, FA. You don't know what their parent's beliefs are and you certainly can't quantify the supposed harm done by them. Parents have been educating their own kids about sex for millennia. Comp sex education has been around for a couple of decades and nobody is saying kids should have no sex education at all. Just that how they receive it should be the parents choice. They should certainly be free to opt out of their children being taught it by people like Spooky fucking Frank, who has alluded right here that people whose religious views he disagrees with, shouldn't have kids. People like that should be nowhere near the education system.

Some of the things that the person in this case shared:

They are stealing the innocence of our children with a devious scheme to
supplant traditional gender roles by differentiating a child’s gender assignment
at birth with his perceived gender.
…
… The far-left zealots have hijacked the learning environment, and they insist
on cramming their perverted vision of gender fluidity down the throats of
unsuspecting school children who are a government mandated captive
audience.
…
The LBGT crowd with the assistance of progressive school systems are
destroying the minds of normal children by promoting mental illness.
Delusional thinking is a form of psychotic thinking, and we have professionals
promoting it to our young kids.

So what about the rights of kids who may be LGBTQ or questioning themselves and whose parents hold such beliefs? Don't you think it's important that they are shown not everyone in society thinks they are psychotic perverts?

 

[Aladdin]

The biggest problem in society imo is the absence of acceptance of others.
That goes for every single human being.

 

[Spymaster]

Some of the things that the person in this case shared:



So what about the rights of kids who may be LGBTQ or questioning themselves and whose parents hold such beliefs? Don't you think it's important that they are shown not everyone in society thinks are psychotic perverts?

See, the views that she's expressed there, in admittedly overly-strident terms, are not dissimilar to many that have been expressed by a lot of posters on these boards over the years, that were not religiously motivated, and led to about half a dozen totally sound, long-term members leaving the community because of reactions to them. In answer to your question, yes it is important. I just don't think the way to do it is by telling kids, albeit by inference, that their parents are liars or wrong, particularly wrt trans issues, which many non-religious people also disagree on.

 

[Aladdin]

Why is sex and relationships education any different to literacy or numeracy or science?

It's very different to be honest.
It's personal.
There is nothing more personal than learning and talking about personal relationships and sexuality. It is not the same as a lesson on trigonometry or a geography lesson.

 

[ouirdeaux]

If science teachers teach evolution to children who are being told at home that it's rubbish, you could say that they are teaching them that their parents are liars or wrong. The same applies to every case where parents disagree with an item on the syllabus, whether related to their religious beliefs or something else.

 

[smokedout]

See, the views that she's expressed there, in admittedly overly-strident terms, are not dissimilar to many that have been expressed by a lot of posters on these boards over the years, that were not religiously motivated, and led to about half a dozen totally sound, long-term members leaving the community because of reactions to them. In answer to your question, yes it is important.

Sorry are you saying the people who have left believed that gender fluidity is a form of perversion and that recognition of LGBTQ identities is a delusion akin to psychosis?

I just don't think the way to do it is by telling kids, albeit by inference, that their parents are liars or wrong, particularly wrt trans issues, which many non-religious people also disagree on.

So should we not teach evolution either in case it infers that religious parents who don't believe in it are liars?

 

[Spymaster]

If science teachers teach evolution to children who are being told at home that it's rubbish, you could say that they are teaching them that their parents are liars or wrong. The same applies to every case where parents disagree with an item on the syllabus, whether related to their religious beliefs or something else.

Yes. And again it comes down to where you draw the line of absurdity. I agree with those who believe it should be at sex and gender politics.

 

[Spymaster]

Sorry are you saying the people who have left believed that gender fluidity is a form of perversion and that recognition of LGBTQ identities is a delusion akin to psychosis?

No.

So should we not teach evolution either in case it infers that religious parents who don't believe in it are liars?

See above.

 

[smokedout]

Yes. And again it comes down to where you draw the line of absurdity. I agree with those who believe it should be at sex and gender politics.

So your saying in principal it's okay for schools to lie or give an incomplete education to children in case it offends their parents beliefs? It's just a question of where to draw the line.

What about when kids ask questions? What if there's a trans teacher or a kid's best friend has same sex parents? Should teachers refuse to answer anything they are asked about LGBTQ people?

 

[ouirdeaux]

Yes. And again it comes down to where you draw the line of absurdity. I agree with those who believe it should be at sex and gender politics.

You haven't given any reason for that, though. You've just asserted it.

The Samaritans was set up because a girl killed herself when she got her period. She didn't know what it was, and her parents had told her that that part of herself was dirty, so she didn't feel able to talk about it.

 

[Spymaster]

You haven't given any reason for that, though. You've just asserted it.

That's because it's my belief rather that a scientific fact.

 

[Santino]

Schools do indeed teach a dangerous subject as fact, in spite of its dangerous ideological nature. This subject is taught as a mishmash of self-contradictory ideas drawn from many different texts and different times, which have been decontextualised from their various historical origins. Regardless of where the ideas are drawn from, though, we have plenty of evidence from contemporary research that the theories are false. The false beliefs that are taught at fact, however, foster a particular cognitive schema of the world, which perpetuates massive harm. It is a schema associated with solipsism and the objectification and dehumanisation of our fellow beings.

That subject is economics. And anybody who wants to start banning subjects from schools could do worse than starting with that one.

It's a shame we don't have any right to challenge this.

 

[Spymaster]

So your saying in principal it's okay for schools to lie or give an incomplete education to children in case it offends their parents beliefs? It's just a question of where to draw the line.

I'm saying that schools should deliver a curriculum that is more broadly agreed upon than trans issues currently are.

What about when kids ask questions? What if there's a trans teacher or a kid's best friend has same sex parents? Should teachers refuse to answer anything they are asked about LGBTQ people?

Ideally they should answer those questions, making it clear that what they are saying is their opinion, and that some others disagree.

 

[Aladdin]

If science teachers teach evolution to children who are being told at home that it's rubbish, you could say that they are teaching them that their parents are liars or wrong. The same applies to every case where parents disagree with an item on the syllabus, whether related to their religious beliefs or something else.

Even without any parental influence...learning RSE is a very different thing to learning maths or science.
BECAUSE relationships are not straight forward..because sexuality is intrinsically personal. It's very very deeply personal .. unless I am mistaken?
There is nothing "personal" about a maths lesson.

 

[smokedout]

I'm curious Spymaster, what do you think kids in primary school are in the main being taught about sex and gender? It's really not difficult to explain to kids that some boys are happier being seen as girls and some girls are happier being seen as boys and some people sort of see themselves in the middle. That's just a very basic fact and primary school RSE doesn't go much beyond that..

If you believe that any girl who says she likes football will immediately be told she is a literal boy, transed by the school in secret and then coerced onto a puberty blockers and surgery at the first opportunity then that is not happening. It's a conspiracy theory. It's nonsense. And that's why it's important kids receive a balanced education about such things that is not swayed by whatever moral panic the Daily Mail happens to be stoking at the time.

 

[smokedout]

I'm saying that schools should deliver a curriculum that is more broadly agreed upon than trans issues currently are.



Ideally they should answer those questions, making it clear that what they are saying is their opinion, and that some others disagree.

So if a kid asks a teacher if it's okay for a man to have a boyfriend the teacher should say in my opinion that's okay but others disagree? Or perhaps no, I don't think it's okay but some others might disagree?