LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[8ball]

I have an arguably scientifically justified belief in global systemic interdependencies... That's Gaia theory, which is not too far from the concept of God if God is believed to be a higher organising power larger than the individual organisms it organises. That belief tells me that if you steal from one part of the system, another part of the system will inevitably suffer. See climate change.

If you're going to describe Gaia theory as "things affect other things", that's very close to the games people play with the definition of "God".

 

[NoXion]

I hate to break this to you, but Jesus didn't write the gospels. Your seem to have a very Literalist reading of the bible. You wouldn't happen to be a Lutheran atheist by any chance?

I know he didn't write the gospels. If he did, there wouldn't be multiple conflicting accounts, or a vague timetable (if you can call it that) subject to interpretation. Because the actual son of God, rather than merely those claiming to speak for him, would have got such an important task right the very first time.

Don't his disciples still roam the earth?

"Some of those who are standing here" seems a pretty obvious reference to people at the time of writing, not subsequent followers in the generations to come. "this generation will not pass away until all things take place" is also pretty unambiguous to me.

 

[Wookey]

If you're going to describe Gaia theory as "things affect other things", that's very close to the games people play with the definition of "God".

My belief system means I recycle and eat vegetables. I wouldn't use it to slice off foreskins or own women.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Jesus explicitly says he'll return within his disciples' lifetime, so this hand-wavy excuse doesn't wash.

Ignoring Jesus, there's the whole Genesis farce. We can demonstrate that the universe took way, way longer than seven literal days to form into its present state. "Alright, it's a metaphor, Biblical 'days' are much longer than 24 hours!" In which case, I wonder how exactly much longer, because God fucked up and created plants before there was any Sun to nourish them. D'oh!

Actually...as written I think it was light that was created before plants. Where do you think that light came from? There are scientists who have postulated that light can come from black holes believe it or not.

"The radiation being described here is not coming out of any kind of matter-the usual source of light energy. The region around the black hole is quite empty of matter Instead, this radiation is coming out of empty space itself! (P. C. Davies, Uncensoring the Universe, The Sciences, March/April 1977, p. 7)."

And what if a billion years is a day somewhere in a universe of creators?

Anyway there is no point in debating this.
The only thing that actually is relevant is:

Article 9: Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching practice and observance.

2. Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

 

[8ball]

My belief system means I recycle and eat vegetables. I wouldn't use it to slice off foreskins or own women.

You'd most likely be doing that without any such belief system, wouldn't you?

 

[Saul Goodman]

You'll notice I didn't mention belief in God, that's too nebulous an idea. I said organised religion.

No, you said my mother is a deluded sky pixie chaser, because she says prayers that she believes occasionally get answered. I didn't mention her being part of or believing in any organised religion. I quite clearly stated that she doesn't believe the world was created in 7 days, yet you ridiculed her for praying to something that you BELIEVE doesn't exist.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I could regurgitate the words of Richard Dawkins but we all know them by now!



You'll notice I didn't mention belief in God, that's too nebulous an idea. I said organised religion.

I have an arguably scientifically justified belief in global systemic interdependencies... That's Gaia theory, which is not too far from the concept of God if God is believed to be a higher organising power larger than the individual organisms it organises. That belief tells me that if you steal from one part of the system, another part of the system will inevitably suffer. See climate change.

But organised religion is retrograde. Especially ones that dictate genital mutilation of little boys, or enforced celibacy, or male superiority, or any of the other abuses that people believe in simply because their parents did.

And what are your views on chaos theory?

 

[8ball]

The only thing that actually is relevant is:

Article 9: Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching practice and observance.

2. Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

The main relevant thing which should really have closed the thread aside from post-hoc banter is what spanglechick said.
Nothing more to be said on the matter, in my view.

 

[Wookey]

No, you said my mother is a deluded sky pixie chaser, because she says prayers that she believes occasionally get answered. I didn't mention her being part of or believing in any organised religion. I quite clearly stated that she doesn't believe the world was created in 7 days, yet you ridiculed her for praying to something that you BELIEVE doesn't exist.

Praying is another form of mediation, for some people. I'd have to talk to your mother to work out exactly how deluded she is of course.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I know he didn't write the gospels. If he did, there wouldn't be multiple conflicting accounts, or a vague timetable (if you can call it that) subject to interpretation. Because the actual son of God, rather than merely those claiming to speak for him, would have got such an important task right the very first time.



"Some of those who are standing here" seems a pretty obvious reference to people at the time of writing, not subsequent followers in the generations to come. "this generation will not pass away until all things take place" is also pretty unambiguous to me.

But, in fairness, you are quoting text from the bible, which doesn't take a genius to tear to shreds in less than 4 seconds.
The bible was written by people, not by the same guy my mother prays to.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

The main relevant thing which should really have closed the thread aside from post-hoc banter is what spanglechick said.
Nothing more to be said on the matter, in my view.

That's a given in my view too.

 

[Wookey]

And what are your views on chaos theory?

Don't know enough, reserve judgement. What are yours?

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Praying is another form of mediation, for some people. I'd have to talk to your mother to work out exactly how deluded she is of course.

Eh?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Praying is another form of mediation, for some people. I'd have to talk to your mother to work out exactly how deluded she is of course.

Ouch, that was a bit low. I don't mind you having a pop at me, but you've overstepped the mark there, you waste of a wank.

 

[Humberto]

"Some of those who are standing here" seems a pretty obvious reference to people at the time of writing, not subsequent followers in the generations to come.

2 verses later: "There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light."

and: "Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus."

"this generation will not pass away until all things take place" is also pretty unambiguous to me.

'this generation' referring to the people who see the prophesied stuff.

 

[NoXion]

Actually...as written I think it was light that was created before plants. Where do you think that light came from? There are scientists who have postulated that light can come from black holes believe it or not.

"The radiation being described here is not coming out of any kind of matter-the usual source of light energy. The region around the black hole is quite empty of matter Instead, this radiation is coming out of empty space itself! (P. C. Davies, Uncensoring the Universe, The Sciences, March/April 1977, p. 7)."

And what if a billion years is a day somewhere in a universe of creators?

Light was created, but according to everything we know about physics, something has to emit it. What were those sources before the stars and the Sun existed? Genesis doesn't say. There's certainly no mention of any nearby black holes keeping the Earth warm until the Sun's construction is finished. There's also no evidence for such a thing happening.

In which case, stretching out the Biblical day to a billion years just makes the problem worse, even leaving aside that we know for a fact that the Earth and the rest of the solar system formed before plants evolved.

Anyway there is no point in debating this.
The only thing that actually is relevant is:

Article 9: Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching practice and observance.

2. Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

This isn't relevant at all. I don't think anybody in this thread has stated or even suggested that Article 9 be repealed or anything like that. If you think there's no point in discussing the mismatch between what we know and what Genesis tells us, why post the P.C. Davies quote you did?

There's also the additional complication that, rather like the Bible, laws are subject to interpretation. Copying segments of the UN Declaration of Human Rights doesn't even begin to end the argument.

 

[NoXion]

Given that there are currently billions of believers across the world, I don't think there's any danger of atheists taking over the world and banning religion, the monsters. In fact I'd say that religious believers have more to worry about from each other than they do from the non-religious.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Genesis

You almost had me up until this part. Everyone knows that Genesis makes the new testament look like the work of a genius. Why do you think it gets brushed under the carpet, even by firm believers?

 

[8ball]

Given that there are currently billions of believers across the world, I don't think there's any danger of atheists taking over the world and banning religion, the monsters. In fact I'd say that religious believers have more to worry about from each other than they do from the non-religious.

I dunno, atheism keeps on increasing. If they're not dealt with now then in a couple of decades 90% of carbon emissions could be generated by the recording and consumption of smug podcasts.

 

[gentlegreen]

I'm actually enjoying learning the truth about the bollocks in the Bible.
A far bigger problem is understanding how the religion has survived so long and why there are still "scholars" studying the thing - just what new stuff are they hoping to learn ?

 

[8ball]

I'm actually enjoying learning the truth about the bollocks in the Bible.
A far bigger problem is understanding how the religion has survived so long and why there are still "scholars" studying the thing - just what new stuff are they hoping to learn ?

Exactly. That and people who study ancient history.
The only history they're making these days is recent history!

Fucking gravy train if you ask me.

 

[NoXion]

You almost had me up until this part. Everyone knows that Genesis makes the new testament look like the work of a genius. Why do you think it gets brushed under the carpet, even by firm believers?

Well, I was going for examples of where the Bible is not concordant with what can be shown to be true.

I dunno, atheism keeps on increasing. If they're not dealt with now then in a couple of decades 90% of carbon emissions could be generated by the recording and consumption of smug podcasts.

Irreligious people are certainly a growing demographic, but I think it's a mistake to identify them with the people making podcasts you don't like.

 

[existentialist]

I don't think I agree with this. Neither religion nor sex/sexuality education should be taught in schools. Both are matters for the parents. If parents want their children to be brought up with religion, that's their business. If they want to tell them that homosexuality is wrong, that's their business. As abhorrent as we may find some views it's not the place for schools or teachers to be getting involved. What about politics? Should schools teach those too? Which ones?

Hmm. In an ideal world, I'd argue that the mechanics of sex don't belong in school...but, given that an awful lot of parents seem to shirk the task, it's a good idea that it happens somewhere...because, when ignorance prevails, bad things do not follow far behind.

On the sexuality question, I think schools do have a role to play in the social education and *cringe* conditioning of people, and as such, they're a good place to be helping children understand some of the complexities around the social roles that sexuality creates and affects. And, given that it would be equally as difficult to expect parents to have the in-depth understanding of chemistry, French, or mathematics to educate their children adequately, why should we expect them to have the life experience and awareness to be able to teach their children about sexuality? Quite apart from that small number of bigoted parents who absolutely refuse to help their children understand the whole landscape of human behaviour because they consider it "immoral", or because they conflate telling children about it with "promoting" it.

And yes, I think some kind of civics should be taught in schools. Not party political stuff, but ideas about how a society holds together, how democracy works, the role of legislatures and executive, judiciary, etc.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Well, I was going for examples of where the Bible is not concordant with what can be shown to be true.

That's easy. It's called 'The Bible'. Old or New Testament will do. It's all complete bullshit.

 

[eoin_k]

Don't know enough, reserve judgement. What are yours?

Einstein thought quantum theory was wrong because 'God doesn't play dice', while Heisenberg pioneered it despite being about as deluded as Saul Goodman's mum. As it happens, Einstein's worldview was probably closer to your own, but he had a bit more intellectual humility than yourself and that intellectual colossus and ethical leading light of yours Richard fucking Dawkins.

 

[NoXion]

That's easy. It's called 'The Bible'. Old or New Testament will do. It's all complete bullshit.

I wouldn't go that far. Have you read the Song of Solomon? It's a rather nice love poem, although pretty explicit for something one might expect to find in such a book.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I wouldn't go that far. Have you read the Song of Solomon? It's a rather nice love poem, although pretty explicit for something one might expect to find in such a book.

I haven't read any of it since I was forced to at school. But now I have to look it up

 

[Red Cat]

Hmm. In an ideal world, I'd argue that the mechanics of sex don't belong in school...but, given that an awful lot of parents seem to shirk the task, it's a good idea that it happens somewhere...because, when ignorance prevails, bad things do not follow far behind.
.

I think children benefit from having a space to think with others, their peers and other adults, about sex and relationships. I'm really pleased that my year 6 daughter has this opportunity in school, a space not inhabited by her parents, as part of her growing independence.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't think Wookey's anti-Semitic at all - he could probably have found a better way to phrase it, but what he said was in the context of bigoted Jewish people threatening to leave the country.

Lets hope those parents don't take their kids to the Haredi communities in New York, or Tel Aviv, as both have rather large issues around child sex abuse, and have historically dealt with children coming forward by expelling their entire families from the community. Kids with relationship and sex education would know such kiddy-fiddling was wrong, and might be more inclined to speak out, and shame Elders in the community.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ouch, that was a bit low. I don't mind you having a pop at me, but you've overstepped the mark there, you waste of a wank.

What I find curious is his claim that he can determine the extent of delusion, in other words that he's some sort of psychiatrist