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Let's talk about China

This writer makes a good case for calling China a fascist state, though I'd be surprised if we heard the f-word in Winter Olympics coverage.

But consider the hallmarks of fascism: a surveillance state with a strongman invoking racism, nationalism and traditional family values at home, while building up a military for expansion abroad.

Maybe depends which definition you go for. Personally I go for Roger Griffin's more nuanced definition of palingenetic populist ultra-nationalist dictatorship. The three main components being : Paningenisis (national rebirth myth), populist ultra-nationalism and the myth of decadence.

I think that maybe China lacks the national rebirth myth - but I could be wrong. But even if China is not fascist it's probably para-fascist - employing some characteristics of fascism but also lacking some - making it fascistic but not necessarily fascist, which is certainly still very bad.
 
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Maybe depends which definition you go for. Personally I go for Roger Griffin's definition of palingenetic populist ultra-nationalist dictatorship. The three main components being : Paningenisis (national rebirth myth), populist ultra nationalism and the myth of decadence.

I think that maybe China lacks the national rebirth myth - but I could be wrong. But even if China is not fascist it's probably para-fascist - employing some characteristics of fascism - making it fascistic but not necessarily fascist, which is certainly very bad.


No it's got that, very keen in retaking it's place center stage after the indignities of the late 19th and early 20th century.
 
No it's got that, very keen in retaking it's place center stage after the indignities of the late 19th and early 20th century.
Well that's interesting and you may well be right. It certainly ticks alot of the fascist boxes, maybe all of them. I mean, I would argue that China does appear to be ultra-nationalist in it's own way and it wouldn't surprise me if the myth of decadence was also present with China. And it can be argued that China is revolutionary (in a fascist sense - wanting to force change on all parts of society), but also still kind of part of the status quo. And if you are correct then it is probably fascist I guess, according to Roger Griffin's definition. Definitely has the same sort of structure and economy as fascism aswell- command capitalism/dirigisme. There is a good reason that the term red fascism exists.
 
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Maybe depends which definition you go for. Personally I go for Roger Griffin's more nuanced definition of palingenetic populist ultra-nationalist dictatorship. The three main components being : Paningenisis (national rebirth myth), populist ultra-nationalism and the myth of decadence.

I think that maybe China lacks the national rebirth myth - but I could be wrong. But even if China is not fascist it's probably para-fascist - employing some characteristics of fascism but also lacking some - making it fascistic but not necessarily fascist, which is certainly still very bad.

China absolutely has the national rebirth myth.

The education syllabus and a lot of TV/movies are all about emphasising China's great ancient history and massively overstating how advanced/powerful ancient China was. The main narrative of the Xi era is about returning China to its supposed historical eminence, and the defining slogan is 中华民族伟大复兴, the "great revitalisation of the Chinese race".

It goes even deeper with the Communist Party funding research to try and prove Han Chinese did not come from Africa but emerged separately.
 
China absolutely has the national rebirth myth.

The education syllabus and a lot of TV/movies are all about emphasising China's great ancient history and massively overstating how advanced/powerful ancient China was. The main narrative of the Xi era is about returning China to its supposed historical eminence, and the defining slogan is 中华民族伟大复兴, the "great revitalisation of the Chinese race".

It goes even deeper with the Communist Party funding research to try and prove Han Chinese did not come from Africa but emerged separately.
re China and birth (slight segway). they have 2 headaches coming. The impact of the old one child policy as their parents age. The impact of the current 3 child policy as they grow up
 
Do you have a source(s) for this? Wouldn’t mind delving into it


This article isn't explicitly about its relation to nationalism, I'm having trouble finding one with Google, but it does refer to Chinese government spending on trying to prove an Out of Asia theory, and also explains why this has been debunked.

It is a lot easier to find examples in Chinese media. It is a widespread and popular theory in China, and is frequently presented as factual in Chinese museums and in schools.

Here is an article about it in Chinese which you can run through Google translate:

百度安全验证

Chinese originated in Africa? Chinese scientists: Humans originated in southwest China

Ever since humans and apes said goodbye to each other, the origin of modern humans has sparked huge debates among experts and scholars in archaeology and paleoanthropology. Finally, from archaeology and research on human genes, the claim that humans originated in Africa is widely recognized. The migration route of ancient humans was from Africa to all parts of the world.

Of course, the controversy over the "African origin theory" has never ceased. Especially in Asia, some scientists and folks have always been brooding about the origin of "Chinese" in Africa. Like other countries, the Chinese archaeological community has always held a view of "multi-origin" and opposed the "single-origin" theory in Africa.
Huang Shi, a Chinese molecular anthropologist and a professor at Central South University, sparked widespread debate in an article in the Journal of Anthropology, titled "New Discovery of Ancient DNA Supports the East Asian Origin of Modern Man". As can be seen from the title, this article proposes a new point of view, the origin of modern humans is not Africa, but East Asia.

The main argument for this paper is that the earliest R* in the ancient hominin genetic data is about 5000 years older than the earliest N*, and the most primitive haplogroups R and N may have been produced very close to these R* and N. * When the ancient people existed. These results affirm the correctness of the Asian origin theory. This view is diametrically opposed to the traditional European and American scholars that N is earlier than R, and further proves that modern humans originated in East Asia, and he more specifically pointed out that it was in southwestern China.

Whether this view is to seek fame or to find another way may still need the test of time. For a long time, the Chinese have had an aversion to the theory of African origin. How could the dignified Chinese have African ancestors? In fact, this is a misunderstanding. The departure of ancient humans from Africa does not mean that the Africans today are our ancestors. During the process of migration, human beings also evolved differently due to different natural environments. For example, the earliest human skin should be light-colored, and after shedding, different skin colors evolved due to ultraviolet rays. When we say that a hundred schools of thought contend, there is something to be said. Paleoanthropological research cannot be mixed with other things. For different viewpoints, dear readers, what do you think
 

This article isn't explicitly about its relation to nationalism, I'm having trouble finding one with Google, but it does refer to Chinese government spending on trying to prove an Out of Asia theory, and also explains why this has been debunked.

It is a lot easier to find examples in Chinese media. It is a widespread and popular theory in China, and is frequently presented as factual in Chinese museums and in schools.

Here is an article about it in Chinese which you can run through Google translate:

百度安全验证
They have also similarly funded the recent research that's comprehensively refuted that too though, insofar as it's papers from academics working in country. Think earlier nonsense was probably more free range nationalists grinding their axe though of course you can talk about the milieu that produces and promotes them too.
 
Was going to post this in the London forum, but its probably more appropriate here given who is involved:

Exclusive: Contractors have started leaving the £900m One Nine Elms site in London as Multiplex chases the developer for payment.


Construction workers started to leave the site today after being told work was being paused. Workers were seen leaving throughout Monday morning, with some telling Construction News their work at the site was over for now.


One worker who was leaving the site said: "The builders will all be gone by Friday. We are heading off now. It could be up to three months they said, but who knows."


A security guard said he expected more information on the plans to come out later today in the form of a letter to subcontractors, but said he expected the site would be closing soon. He added that it was unclear when work would start again.


CN understands all the subcontractors will be off the site by Friday and that work is stopping after the developer, China-based R&F Properties UK, failed to pay the principal contractor, Multiplex.

R&F acquired the site in January 2018 from Chinese firm Wanda after it ran into financial difficulties. But earlier this month, R&F's Hong Kong subsidiary was put in “selective default” after it agreed with its lenders to delay a $725m (£539m) debt repayment, according to Reuters. At the time, the parent company's credit rating was not changed, but credit rating agency S&P Global said it could still be cut.

more here
 

Very interesting interview with the author of a Pentagon report on the strategic consequences of Chinese racism. You can also download the full report here, it is well worth a read:


What is interesting is that it recommends using China's racism and its lack of self-criticism within Chinese culture as an ideological weapon against it. I think this stance will probably work - I and many others who studied Chinese and spent time in China have came to similar conclusions that unless China confronts their racist ethnocentric worldview and opens up to free exchange of ideas, then they should be opposed on anti-fascist grounds and should be prevented from becoming a world power as the consequences for everyone else would be dire. I think most people have still not really considered what the implications of a Chinese superpower would be, or are not familiar enough with contemporary China.

Also, I do want to see this strategy pursued because I would like to see Chinese society finally address their racism and having it become the primary obstacle to their competition with the United States might finally motivate some serious reflection on it. It may also undermine the Communist Party's source of legitimacy, as promoting Han chauvinism and racial solidarity domestically is integral to their popular support, and they have put faith in this approach as economic growth starts to weaken - but if using this strategy domestically complicates their international standing, then they are put in quite an awkward position.

A few quotes from the report's recommendations:

First, Chinese racism provides empirical evidence of how the Chinese will
treat other international actors if China becomes dominant. One of the key
insights into Chinese future behavior is its behavior in the past. Analysts do
have insight into how China will behave in the future based on its behavior in
the past, when it was the hegemon of Asia, the known world as far as China
was concerned. China sees itself as the center of the universe, all others are
inferior, with varying degrees of inferiority. That is not an attractive model
of winning allies and influence.

United States Defense decision-makers might draw upon the following
themes as asymmetrical messages to weaken China’s influence in the world.
The first of these themes should be to advance a “reality check” to the global
community: “how do Chinese words match Chinese deeds when it comes to
treating people fairly and equally.”

The second theme is to introduce fault. “Why do the Chinese refuse to
change their racist views of the rest of the world?” Or more succinctly, “Why
don’t the Chinese like black people; or Indians; or South East Asians; or Latin
Americans?” Attention needs to be called to its eugenics policies as well.
“Why do the Chinese support eugenics generations after it was discredited in
the West?” Likewise, explicit ties to the policies of Nazi Germany may be
made since both Berlin and Beijing embraced eugenics. Beijing continues to
do so long after it has been discredited.

A third theme is to suggest that there is something profoundly wrong
with China’s worldview: “Why are the Chinese unable, or unwilling, to change
their racist views?” Or that there is something deeply iniquitous with China
itself, that is to say there is something profoundly wrong with the Chinese
people, or with their elite: “Why is China a racist state?” “Racism has been
confronted and defeated worldwide, why is it celebrated in China?”

These themes allow the United States and other countries to challenge
China’s projected image of an oppressed victim of racism with actual
empirical reality: China is a racist superpower. It practices discredited
eugenics policies. It does not equal the horrors of Nazi Germany, but it is far
closer to Nazism than it is to a free, open, and tolerant society.

Second, it allows the United States to undermine China in the Third World.

The essence of the Chinese message to Third World states is a
straightforward rhetorical query: Has the United States or the Europeans
ever treated you as equals? In contrast, China portrays itself as an apolitical
rising superpower that does business in your country, pays a fair price for
your commodities, and builds your infrastructure with no string attached.

The United States needs to counter the expansion of Chinese influence
by tying in to the messages stated above, but adding the important point that
there is no culture of anti-racism in China, and so there is little hope for
change. Messages may be advanced along the following line: “The West
confronted racism and developed a strong culture of anti-racism, China has
not, nor is it likely to do so.”

Second, the United States should highlight that Chinese business
practices are destructive.

There often is considerable resentment toward the Chinese due to their ruthless business practices, which undercut and destroy African businesses. The combination of the two messages, “China is racist with no culture of anti-racism, and their businesses practices are destructive for the locals,” would be most effective in making appeals to the Third World.

Third, it is an obvious point, but it must be made: the Chinese are hypocrites when it comes to race and racial equality. For all of their rhetoric on Africa and their “African brothers,” the cold facts of Chinese racism triumph paeans to “Third World solidarity.”

Fourth, the message of the United States should be: We are better
than the Chinese for Africa.

We will assist you with economic aid to offset what you receive from China. In sum, culturally, socially, and politically, the
United States is better, citizens are equal, racial equality, and civil rights are
recognized.

Third, it permits a positive image of the United States to be advanced in
contrast to China.

The direct fact is, when compared with China, it is easy to convey to the rest
of the world the message that the United States is open and inclusive, whereas China is not. This is because to do so is completely in accord with the principles of the United States and its history.
The messages should be, first, the United States seeks the best from around the world, and will permit them to come to the country so that they may prosper, fulfill themselves as individuals, innovate, and, in turn, aid economic growth and innovation in the United States. Second, the United States opens its society, educational system, Universities, military, and economy to immigrants as countless examples demonstrate. Third, it has in
place Affirmative Action policies as a matter of state policy that benefits
immigrants from racial minorities and/or those who are women. In sum, the
United States is one of the most transparent societies in the world for
immigrants.

Fourth, calling attention to Chinese racism allows political and ideological
alliances of the United States to be strengthened.

Political alliances particularly with Third World states are an obvious benefit. Equally important are the ideological alliances that the United States may augment. Intellectual circles in Europe, Canada, and the United States value multiracial and multicultural societies.
Journalists and media opinion-makers frequently share a multiracial and multicultural vision of their societies as well. Yet, thus far, they have not treated the problem of Chinese racism with the attention it deserves. The “China is a racist state” message of the United States will help win allies in global, popular culture, which is heavily influenced by ideals rooted in Western, left wing political thought, including strong currents of anti-racism. Popular cultural figures from film, music, television, and sports, will be far
better able to call attention to China’s racism for younger audiences
worldwide than will official or semi-official Washington.
It is to the advantage of the United States to have the world consider the costs of Chinese dominance in order to grasp what will be lost. This is an exercise that most of the world has not done, and as a result there is no appreciation of what will be lost; or how hypocritical, domineering, and imperialistic China will be.

Fifth, United States defense decision-makers must recognize that racism is a
cohesive force for the Chinese.

Racism does benefit the Chinese in four major ways. First, the Han Chinese possess a strong in-group identity with a
polarized and tightly defined out-group. This allows the Chinese government
to expect sacrifice as well as support from a considerable majority of the
Chinese people.

Second, based in this identity, the government has the ability to focus
with great willpower on the demands of the state. All governments make
patriotic appeals, but the Chinese government is able to do so effectively
because any entreaty is based on patriotism as well as nationalism. When we reflect on the tools the Chinese government has to extract support and
resources from the population, only one conclusion is possible, they are
formidable.

Third, they have strong societal unity and purpose, which supports Chinese power. The Chinese do not have a culture that is self-critical or one that ponders its fundamental faults.

Fourth, China’s racism and ethnocentrism serves China’s teleological worldview. History, in the Hegelian sense, is moving in China’s direction and the future belongs to it, China’s political beliefs, civilizational culture, and economic might triumphed over the West.

While racism can be a great strength for China, it also gives the United States an advantage. The lack of any desire by the Chinese to self-reflect on the profound faults of their society means that there is no motivation to solve these faults. Accordingly, a powerful message may be that China will not change because it has no desire to do so. In essence, with China, “what you see is what you get.” The country is a civilization, and that yields them great strength.
 
Continued-

At the same time, there cannot be fundamental change. China is not
an open society, transparent and porous for new ideas that would challenge
its core beliefs. For those states and peoples whom the Chinese see as
inferior, dissatisfaction with core Chinese beliefs is certain to increase as
Chinese power expands. Thus, the United States may tap into that “market of
dissatisfaction” by calling attention to China’s lack of flexibility and flexibility,
contempt for, and dismissal of the rest of the world.

Finally, the United States may make appeals to those actors in international politics that do not desire China to be at the center of the world either, first, because their interests directly conflict with China’s, like India, Japan, Russia, and Vietnam; second, because they resent being excluded from consideration, treated equally, or with respect; or third, because they reject China’s values and worldview.

The study’s fundamental conclusion is that endemic Chinese racism offers
the United States a major asymmetry it may exploit with major countries,
regions like Africa, as well as with important opinion makers in international
politics. The United States is on the right side of the struggle against racism
and China is not. The United States should call attention to this to aid its
position in international politics.
 
Also, I do want to see this strategy pursued because I would like to see Chinese society finally address their racism and having it become the primary obstacle to their competition with the United States might finally motivate some serious reflection on it. It may also undermine the Communist Party's source of legitimacy, as promoting Han chauvinism and racial solidarity domestically is integral to their popular support, and they have put faith in this approach as economic growth starts to weaken - but if using this strategy domestically complicates their international standing, then they are put in quite an awkward position.

Don't you think that any such strategy would be fatally undermined by the fact that the leading nation of the supposedly "enlightened, anti-racist" West is not without its own significant problems with racism? Such as how the US literally had a civil war that was at least partially over slavery, and continues to enshrine the slavery of prisoners (a lot of whom are black) in its constitution to this day? It's not all dead and buried ancient history either (not in a nation less than two and a half centuries old), hence the BLM protests just a couple of years ago. It's not just the US with slavery either, plenty of Western nations have a history of colonial exploitation which is still being felt today. Even boring little Belgium has some truly sickening chapters in its past.

The report's recommendations that you've quoted leave out a lot of uncomfortable facts about US and Western history and society. Yes there is a "culture of anti-racism" in the West, but there is also a culture of white supremacy, and it's not undeniably clear which one is dominant. At least none of the quoted parts mentioned democracy, as that could be potentially embarrassing rhetoric to engage in, coming from a country that gerrymanders the fuck out of its voting districts and engages in voter suppression along racial lines.
 
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Don't you think that any such strategy would be fatally undermined by the fact that the leading nation of the supposedly "enlightened, anti-racist" West is not without its own significant problems with racism? Such as how the US literally had a civil war that was at least partially over slavery, and continues to enshrine the slavery of prisoners (a lot of whom are black) in its constitution to this day? It's not all dead and buried ancient history either (not in a nation less than two and a half centuries old), hence the BLM protests just a couple of years ago. It's not just the US with slavery either, plenty of Western nations have a history of colonial exploitation which is still being felt today. Even boring little Belgium has some truly sickening chapters in its past.

The report's recommendations that you've quoted leave out a lot of uncomfortable facts about US and Western history and society. Yes there is a "culture of anti-racism" in the West, but there is also a culture of white supremacy, and it's not undeniably clear which one is dominant. At least none of the quoted parts mentioned democracy, as that could be potentially embarrassing rhetoric to engage in, coming from a country that gerrymanders the fuck out of its voting districts and engages in voter suppression along racial lines.

Of course, but it doesn't change that the US and the west generally are much more accommodating to other ethnicities than China is, and that this is a huge advantage.

The report is actually from 2012 so it is quite old now. Its advice is good, but it certainly wasn't followed in the Trump era, when Trump even refused to say anything about the treatment of the Uyghurs and iirc even kind of praised it (I might be wrong, but I seem to remember something like that). This is because, as you say, it is complicated by the fact that the anti-racist "woke" culture of liberal multiracial US exists alongside a culture of Anglo-Saxon Protestant white supremacy.

But nevertheless its observations about China are correct and its predictions that Chinese ethno-centrism will frustrate its efforts to be a world power have been borne out by events since then.

Edit to add:

If the US embraces a multiracial identity over a WASP identity, it is certain to win an ideological conflict with China, and China's soft power failures are largely because of how extremely and increasingly nationalistic popular culture is which struggles to match the cross-cultural appeal of US or even Korean or Japanese popular culture - Chinese racism also makes learning Chinese less useful as it is not possible for foreigners to develop stable careers and lives within China, which is one of many factors which prevents Chinese becoming a potential lingua franca to compete with English. It also frequently converts Sinophiles into China Hawks and leads to foolish diplomatic behaviour due to a lack of worldliness on the part of the Chinese government. This is quite different to the diplomatic advantages the US derives from having citizens with kinship ties to more or less every country. I think it is fair to say that while China was a mystery 30 years ago or so, that today the US understands China better than vice versa, and this is facilitated by the number of naturalised American journalists and academics of Chinese heritage.

And there are reasons to believe that history is on the side of a multiracial identity. Only 57% of the US population is white as of the 2020 census, and I think below a certain age whites are already less than 50%, at which point it will no longer make sense to talk of the US in terms synonymous with whiteness.
 
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Don't you think that any such strategy would be fatally undermined by the fact that the leading nation of the supposedly "enlightened, anti-racist" West is not without its own significant problems with racism? Such as how the US literally had a civil war that was at least partially over slavery, and continues to enshrine the slavery of prisoners (a lot of whom are black) in its constitution to this day? It's not all dead and buried ancient history either (not in a nation less than two and a half centuries old), hence the BLM protests just a couple of years ago. It's not just the US with slavery either, plenty of Western nations have a history of colonial exploitation which is still being felt today. Even boring little Belgium has some truly sickening chapters in its past.

True, some statements in that report are so deep in denial they're bordering on delusional - but these issues are very well-known internationally, while China is still trying to promote itself to developing countries as a fellow victim of racism, not an enthusiastic perpetrator of it.

Even during the Trump years, this remained much more true of China that of the US: "....is a racist superpower. It practices discredited eugenics policies. It does not equal the horrors of Nazi Germany, but it is far closer to Nazism than it is to a free, open, and tolerant society."
 
But nevertheless its observations about China are correct and its predictions that Chinese ethno-centrism will frustrate its efforts to be a world power have been borne out by events since then.

What would you offer as examples of this?
 
What would you offer as examples of this?

Well, firstly, the treatment of the Uyghurs has lost China a lot of potential friends. Attempts to defend it in terms of claiming Uyghurs to be a terrorist threat often reveals an inability to understand that people object to deliberate persecution of an entire race, and whether or not some of them may or may not be terrorists is beside the point.

There are also a few specific examples of anti-black racism causing a backlash within Africa.



It is hard to quantify how much of an effect this will have on Chinese interests in Africa, but it would certainly make it easier for rivals like India, Japan or Western countries to compete against China for influence in Africa.

There are a lot of minor things that collectively add up to quite a lot. For instance, the kidnapping of a Swedish citizen and then attempts to punish Sweden for objecting are a key reason why Sweden is the most hostile country to China in Europe. This relates to racism because the Swedish citizen was ethnically Chinese, and the Chinese government considers itself to have sovereignty over all ethnically Chinese people. The general conduct of nationalistic Chinese diplomats, attempts to bully small European countries which they view with contempt (Sweden, Lithuania, Czechia off the top of my head) and events in Xinjiang have combined done a lot to get the China-EU investment deal suspended.

China has also made itself hated by South Koreans due to continued attempts to claim South Korean culture as their own, relating to an ethnocentric narrative. There is a lot of stupidity over claiming Hanbok and Kim chi as Chinese. This is important because China routinely justifies occupation of Xinjiang and Tibet in terms of them being connected to Chinese culture since ancient times, so it can be perceived as an attempt to claim Korea as Chinese. There was a big controversy over them using Hanbok at the Winter Olympics ceremony:


This ethnocentric approach to their neighbours is a huge part of why, over the last decade, many countries in East Asia have pivoted away from China, such as Japan and Vietnam.

In general, over the last decade, foreigners engaged with China have tended to end up with more negative views towards China than before. This is hard to quantify, and I'm basing this on anecdotal experience, but reflected in polls which show a rapid decline in positive views of China over the last 10 years, and other polls which show South Asian countries increasingly favour the US over China.



Some examples other than my own anecdotal experience, this is a YouTube channel by an Ghanaian who studied in Africa and discusses Chinese racism towards Africans. I think especially in recent years, it is quite common for Africans who've lived in China to feel the same as him:



I don't believe that the growing backlash against China can be separated from the vigorous state-led promotion of nationalist chauvinism in recent years. It may have been inevitable that the US would come to see China as a threat, but it was never inevitable that India, Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, South Korea, Australia and much of Europe would come to view China antagonistally.
 



thought this was interesting. One where the Youtuber's previous involvement with falun gong is worth mentioning. However does seem to me like there are 2competeing strands within the CCP. And with the collapse of local government finance model within China some hum dinger political battles to come over restucturing.
 



thought this was interesting. One where the Youtuber's previous involvement with falun gong is worth mentioning. However does seem to me like there are 2competeing strands within the CCP. And with the collapse of local government finance model within China some hum dinger political battles to come over restucturing.


I think it's a bit of a stretch to say Xi Jinping is deliberately trying to undermine the Party, on the contrary he is responsible for pushing it back into everyday life.

I think it is true that he has weakened it by centring power on himself, and when he dies, it is possible that the Party could unravel as a result of a power vacuum. But I doubt this is his intention, far more likely to be a case of him growing more paranoid as he makes more enemies and accumulating more power for this reason.

I wouldn't write off another coup attempt at the 2022 Congress to prevent Xi taking another term, but we will have to wait and see.
 
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say Xi Jinping is deliberately trying to undermine the Party, on the contrary he is responsible for pushing it back into everyday life.

I think it is true that he has weakened it by centring power on himself, and when he dies, it is possible that the Party could unravel as a result of a power vacuum. But I doubt this is his intention, far more likely to be a case of him growing more paranoid as he makes more enemies and accumulating more power for this reason.

I wouldn't write off another coup attempt at the 2022 Congress to prevent Xi taking another term, but we will have to wait and see.
Agree its a stretch and didn't buy his narrative at all, but but the factions, the players even the publication of the document itsself I can believe. Also notice that said youtube now requires "identiy varification" for some reason. It didn't when I orginally posted.....Would give a fuller reply but can't without rewatching the youtube. For some reason feel uneasy about confirming my identity to enable that
 


More here.

Read onwards for the latest in Hong Kong (and some, irrelevant, music and inbetweeny-bits. Just ignore as takes your fancy).




Woof
 
More here.

Read onwards for the latest in Hong Kong (and some, irrelevant, music and inbetweeny-bits. Just ignore as takes your fancy).




Woof
what I found intreseting was their rules is rules approach hasn't survived covid hitting Shang Hai
 
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