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Keir Starmer's time is up

Yeah, but on the other hand, RLB wasn't actually very good - despite the great hopes/confirmation bias of much of more left elements within the party - so her being got rid of from an already arms length position is not exactly consequential or headline news regarding a party that is already very clearly on its way to centrist irrelevance.
 
Nobody said no training exchanges happen, plenty do. I disputed what Peake said which was...

"...she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

No evidence for that at all, if you think they go to learn that basic shit from some special Israel secret service you're deluded. And the phrasing of it and focus of blaming the hand of Israel for a killing by a random cop in the US smacks very firmly of conspiracy theory bollocks to me. Most charitably she's a fucking idiot who should know better.

She's retracted her statement btw, for all of you defending it.

She's drawing a parallel between the racist policing tactics/methods used daily. Plenty of evidence of that.

No there is no 'evidence' to say that the US police officers that killed GF learnt those skills from the MID/IDF, we'd need to hear from someone who has attended to know that for sure. From what I have read there have been higher level strategic visits as well as actual training for lower level police bods.
 
or AS.
Nobody said no training exchanges happen, plenty do. I disputed what Peake said which was...

"...she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

No evidence for that at all, if you think they go to learn that basic shit from some special Israel secret service you're deluded. And the phrasing of it and focus of blaming the hand of Israel for a killing by a random cop in the US smacks very firmly of conspiracy theory bollocks to me. Most charitably she's a fucking idiot who should know better.
I'll start of by cementing my ignorance on this: I don't know what the nuances of Peake's politics are when it comes to Israel or AS. She might have a toe in the water, might share commons assumptions, might have a tendency to read those articles rather than those others. And of course she might be none of the above. But its the morass, the almost neurological network of Cts and antisemitism that is the problem. It sits there as a failed issue for the left, 'a thing', a ball of shite that you either plot your way round with good instincts and good thinking or you find yourself caught up in. Trouble is, if anyone is going to 'solve this' nowadays it will be the likes of Starmer, the Mail and the worst of the worse. In a sense they already have. The left could have done so much more to call out AS and develop it's own solution back in the time of the STWC but didn't (and way before that). Remember all the threads on here.
 
Yeah, but on the other hand, RLB wasn't actually very good - despite the great hopes/confirmation bias of much of more left elements within the party

I make no great claims about RLB. Her leadership bid was execrable and I’ve seen more life in a damp cloth.

However, it’s a significantly symbolic move by Haircut. Both in terms of recasting the relationship with the unions - her real crime was the support she was offering teaching unions - and also defining the new parameters of how ‘unity’ is going to work.

For those in here who have any illusions about Labour it’s a moment where they are going to need to make some decisions.
 
Nobody said no training exchanges happen, plenty do. I disputed what Peake said which was...

"...she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

No evidence for that at all, if you think they go to learn that basic shit from some special Israel secret service you're deluded. And the phrasing of it and focus of blaming the hand of Israel for a killing by a random cop in the US smacks very firmly of conspiracy theory bollocks to me. Most charitably she's a fucking idiot who should know better.

She's retracted her statement btw, for all of you defending it.
You been taking goal post sifting lessons from Athos? You were saying it was the mention of ‘secret services’ that was the problem before. Everyone on here has said she was wrong about that specific and should say so, which she has. But that single mistake doesn’t make her a peddler of anti Semitic conspiracy theories.

Funny that you n butch have both adopted the same tactics as the conspiraloons you’re meant to be opposing. A single incorrect statement, twisted to mean something that 99% of people wouldn’t have thought...and using that to damn them as being ‘obviously’ anti Semitic. Utterly fucking absurd.
 
I make no great claims about RLB. Her leadership bid was execrable and I’ve seen more life in a damp cloth.

However, it’s a significantly symbolic move by Haircut. Both in terms of recasting the relationship with the unions - her real crime was the support she was offering teaching unions - and also defining the new parameters of how ‘unity’ is going to work.

For those in here who have any illusions about Labour it’s a moment where they are going to need to make some decisions.
I can agree that for some out there it will be revealing, although they will probably stick with Labour. For us on here, and I barely know what day it is, it's surely nothing new?
 
TBF if US Police wanted to learn "restraint techniques" then the place to learn that is here, not Israel (where their style of policing is so similar that there would be no reason to go there to do it).

Also it is a bit much to say that because people went there for training it must have been related to this issue. To give one example, many forces that have a requirement to record 911 calls, radio traffic and other call-centre interactions will use a product made by an Israeli firm (NICE). Most training would take place locally, but a few people will have been able to get a holiday out of learning how to use it (especially with the amount of money some US forces have to spend on equipment)

Peake was talking rubbish, and anti-semitic rubbish at that.
It's for the team building convos in the bar afterwards. "No way, you guys kneel on suspect's necks too?"
 
Not that I would have known this but it is a thing to pay, as a civilian of other countries to receive training by the IDF/ex IDF. There are adventure holiday style companies offering this. 'No one will mess with you when you return' is an actual quote from one of them.

Search 'Training with the IDF' if you are grimly minded this evening and want to see for yourself.
 
All this is new to me this evening :(

But you don't have to think much is good about either Keir Starmer or Rebecca Long-Bailey to find the last few pages of this thread utterly depressing ..... :thumbsdown:

:mad:

(I've made a few inconsistent likes of different posts above, but I was enjoying the anti-Tory threads prior to this :( )
 
Paywall. :/
There should be a browse now button. C+P.

A few months ago, I posted a review of the harrowing documentary “Do Not Resist.” It includes a scene from a class with Dave Grossman, whose classes on policing and the use of force have become hugely popular in the law enforcement community.

Fittingly, the most chilling scene in the movie doesn’t take place on a city street, or at a protest, or during a drug raid. It takes place in a conference room. It’s from a police training conference with Dave Grossman, one of the most prolific police trainers in the country. Grossman’s classes teach officers to be less hesitant to use lethal force, urge them to be willing to do it more quickly and teach them how to adopt the mentality of a warrior. Jeronimo Yanez, the Minnesota police officer who shot and killed Philando Castile in July, had attended one of Grossman’s classes called “The Bulletproof Warrior” (though that particular class was taught by Grossman’s business partner, Jim Glennon).
In the class recorded for “Do Not Resist,” Grossman at one point tells his students that the sex they have after they kill another human being will be the best sex of their lives. The room chuckles. But he’s clearly serious. “Both partners are very invested in some very intense sex,” he says. “There’s not a whole lot of perks that come with this job. You find one, relax and enjoy it.”
Grossman closes the class with a (literal) chest-pounding motivational speech that climaxes with Grossman telling the officers to find an overpass overlooking the city they serve. He urges them to look down on their city and know that they’ve made the world a better place. He then urges them to grip the overpass railing, lean forward and “let your cape blow in the wind.” The room gives him a standing ovation.

Grossman and Glennon teach the most popular of these classes, but they have competitors. When it comes to teaching cops how to escalate, how to see the world as their enemy and how to find the courage to kill more people, more often, there’s no shortage of options. (The syllabus for one of these courses includes a page of Bible verses relating to when it’s moral and just to kill.) It’s part and parcel with the pseudoscience churned out by William Lewinski at the Force Science Institute in Minnesota, who also preaches that cops should learn to become more lethal (and will testify in court for any cop who takes his advice). I’ve spoken to more than a few sheriffs and police chiefs who want no part of this philosophy, but who also say they can’t really control what their officers do on their own time.

Mother Jones reporter Bryan Schatz recently took one of Grossman’s classes himself.


Marching around the stage in a theater in Lakeport, California, Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman tells his audience that they shouldn’t go out looking for people to kill, because those who need killing—the “gangbangers,” terrorists, and mass murderers—will come to them. All they need to do is be ready. “Are you prepared to kill somebody?” he asks me and the small group of “armed citizens” who’ve paid $90 or more to see him. “If you cannot answer that question, you should not be carrying a gun.”
Two hours into his high-octane, six-hour seminar, the self-described top police trainer in the nation is just getting warmed up. Grossman, a 60-year-old former Army Ranger, wears low-slung blue jeans, an ornate Western belt buckle, and a black button-up emblazoned with the words “Grossman Academy,” the “O” stitched like a bull’s-eye. He sports a military haircut. Onstage are two giant easel pads, their legs taped to the floor so that they don’t go crashing down whenever he hits them to punctuate his points. “We fight violence. What do we fight it with? Superior violence. Righteous violence.” Like a preacher, he doesn’t bother with notes …



Grossman’s worldview makes President Trump sound like Julian Simon.
[Grossman] views the world as almost unrecognizably dangerous: a place where gang members seek to set records for killing cops, where a kid “in every school” is thinking about racking up “a body count.” His latest book, Assassination Generation, insists that violent video games are turning the nation’s youth into mass murderers. The recent wave of “massacres” is just the beginning. (“Please stop calling them mass shootings!”) He smacks the easels: “These [thump] crimes [thump] are [thump] everywhere!” He foresees attacks on school buses and day care centers. “Kindergartners run about point-five miles an hour and get a burst of about 20 yards and then they’re done.” It won’t just happen with guns, but with hammers, axes, hatchets, knives, and swords. His voice jumps an octave: “Hacking and stabbing little kids! You don’t think they’ll attack day cares? It’s already happening in China. When you hear about a day care massacre,” he shouts, “tell them Grossman said it was coming!”
That’s not the end of it. “More people are signing up with ISIS than we can count,” Grossman says. He predicts a terrorist organization will soon detonate a nuclear bomb off the West Coast. “We have never been more likely to be nuked, and we have never been less prepared!” Terrorists will send “suicide bio-bombers” across the border to spread deadly diseases. “The day will come,” Grossman insists. “Folks, it is very, very bad out there!”

This is the guy who has trained more U.S. police officers than anyone else. The guy who, more than anyone else, has instructed cops on what mind-set they should bring to their jobs.
Schatz isn’t the first reporter to attend one of these classes. Bloomberg’s Peter Robison attended one in 2015, taught by Grossman’s colleague Glennon. Here’s a particularly vivid passage from Robison’s account:
Before proceeding, Glennon points to a threat in the back of the room: me. “In 35 years, we have not allowed the press to come into a class,” he says. “The reason is because we don’t trust them.” He says he’s letting me observe because many police chiefs are frustrated no one is advocating for them. They’re tired of being portrayed in the media as racists and unaccountable killers and want a more sympathetic depiction. If my article screws them, he tells the class with a smile, “I’ll fly out to Seattle”—where I live—“and kill him.”
I mean, I’m sure Glennon was joking. (Hilarious!) But in an era in which we have a president who a) is beloved by law enforcement, b) vilifies journalists and c) has expressed his admiration for at least one foreign leader believed to have no qualms about assassinating journalists, that passage is especially disconcerting.

We’re also entering an era in which law enforcement officials appear to be emboldened by Trump’s election. Both the president and Attorney General Jeff Sessions have indicated that federal oversight of local law enforcement is about to end or at least be scaled back considerably. State legislators have followed with bills to hold cops less accountable and allow police agencies to be less transparent after allegations of excessive force. These classes are getting increasingly popular at a time when the dominant political party seems to believe police officers should be given more latitude, get less oversight and not be subject to second-guessing. That seems like a potentially dangerous combination.
 
Yeah, but let’s not ‘both sides’ this shit. The status quo leads to these slaughters and right wingers like Starmer support the status quo. The left are the ones trying to change it.
Well yeah, I want to criticise the state of Israel, I want to challenge it's racist policies and murders. But then there isn't a single left on this - I want to be able to say all that without saying 'we're all Hezbollah now'.
 
There should be a browse now button. C+P.

A few months ago, I posted a review of the harrowing documentary “Do Not Resist.” It includes a scene from a class with Dave Grossman, whose classes on policing and the use of force have become hugely popular in the law enforcement community.



Grossman and Glennon teach the most popular of these classes, but they have competitors. When it comes to teaching cops how to escalate, how to see the world as their enemy and how to find the courage to kill more people, more often, there’s no shortage of options. (The syllabus for one of these courses includes a page of Bible verses relating to when it’s moral and just to kill.) It’s part and parcel with the pseudoscience churned out by William Lewinski at the Force Science Institute in Minnesota, who also preaches that cops should learn to become more lethal (and will testify in court for any cop who takes his advice). I’ve spoken to more than a few sheriffs and police chiefs who want no part of this philosophy, but who also say they can’t really control what their officers do on their own time.

Mother Jones reporter Bryan Schatz recently took one of Grossman’s classes himself.


Marching around the stage in a theater in Lakeport, California, Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman tells his audience that they shouldn’t go out looking for people to kill, because those who need killing—the “gangbangers,” terrorists, and mass murderers—will come to them. All they need to do is be ready. “Are you prepared to kill somebody?” he asks me and the small group of “armed citizens” who’ve paid $90 or more to see him. “If you cannot answer that question, you should not be carrying a gun.”
Two hours into his high-octane, six-hour seminar, the self-described top police trainer in the nation is just getting warmed up. Grossman, a 60-year-old former Army Ranger, wears low-slung blue jeans, an ornate Western belt buckle, and a black button-up emblazoned with the words “Grossman Academy,” the “O” stitched like a bull’s-eye. He sports a military haircut. Onstage are two giant easel pads, their legs taped to the floor so that they don’t go crashing down whenever he hits them to punctuate his points. “We fight violence. What do we fight it with? Superior violence. Righteous violence.” Like a preacher, he doesn’t bother with notes …



Grossman’s worldview makes President Trump sound like Julian Simon.


This is the guy who has trained more U.S. police officers than anyone else. The guy who, more than anyone else, has instructed cops on what mind-set they should bring to their jobs.
Schatz isn’t the first reporter to attend one of these classes. Bloomberg’s Peter Robison attended one in 2015, taught by Grossman’s colleague Glennon. Here’s a particularly vivid passage from Robison’s account:

I mean, I’m sure Glennon was joking. (Hilarious!) But in an era in which we have a president who a) is beloved by law enforcement, b) vilifies journalists and c) has expressed his admiration for at least one foreign leader believed to have no qualms about assassinating journalists, that passage is especially disconcerting.

We’re also entering an era in which law enforcement officials appear to be emboldened by Trump’s election. Both the president and Attorney General Jeff Sessions have indicated that federal oversight of local law enforcement is about to end or at least be scaled back considerably. State legislators have followed with bills to hold cops less accountable and allow police agencies to be less transparent after allegations of excessive force. These classes are getting increasingly popular at a time when the dominant political party seems to believe police officers should be given more latitude, get less oversight and not be subject to second-guessing. That seems like a potentially dangerous combination.


Thanks, reading that, it sent me off down a rabbit hole of the what training happens in the US and who provides it. Another world completely.
Grossman isn't the only one, obviously there are loads of orgs and institutes, some with links to the IDF and IDF training boasted as a 'selling' point.
 
This event has nicely illustrated how unserious and essentially useless the Labour left are, and how quickly and ruthlessly the right is moving to consolidate power. Two for one.
Consolidate what power though, and for what? Whilst you're obviously correct about the left, I think you're at risk of grossly overestimating the right, who so far have managed to agree with the government a whole lot, not convince anyone, and then action a breathtaking coup in which they err eliminated one of the weakest political challengers the world has ever seen from a position of err not really very much import.

I mean, we knew all this already and it only really matters if you haven't yet written off the Labour Party. But it doesn't mean the Labour Party are winning either.
 
This event has nicely illustrated how unserious and essentially useless the Labour left are, and how quickly and ruthlessly the right is moving to consolidate power. Two for one.
Yeah, Starmer consolidates power and even further limits the parameters within which he will seek to win power for Labour. Him, RLB, Peake all seem to be characters in a game that had its rules written a long time ago.
 
This event has nicely illustrated how unserious and essentially useless the Labour left are, and how quickly and ruthlessly the right is moving to consolidate power. Two for one.

Campaign Group have launched a petition. Waitrose must be shitting himself
 
If he had neglected to meet it head on the party would just have been dogged by the accusations in perpetuity. I think it was the right move from a leadership perspective. It's not about placating people who show poor judgement. They are meant to be able to get the right line on things like this in their sleep. If they aren't up to it they need demoting.
 
Totally missing the point (possibly) but you have to wonder if the set of "Silk" with Maxine and Frances was anything like the "Feud" between Bette and Joan.
 
I can agree that for some out there it will be revealing, although they will probably stick with Labour. For us on here, and I barely know what day it is, it's surely nothing new?
I mean, we knew all this already and it only really matters if you haven't yet written off the Labour Party. But it doesn't mean the Labour Party are winning either.
There are people on here who were insisting that the LP was the best option for political change, that it was at the very least a social democratic, perhaps even a socialist, party. People who defend LP councillors voting for cuts. There are people on U75 (hell on this thread) who have not only not written off the LP but have specifically opposed criticism of it.

Less than two years ago you specifically stated that parliamentary politics was the only recourse for action. Five years ago you specifically argued that people should become involved in the LP. IF you're now saying that you've written off the LP fine, but it was not that long ago that you were attacking people for their criticisms of the LP.
 
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Dave Grossman wrote the seminal “On Killing”

The psychology of how train out the human behavioural trait of not to want to kill another human being

obviously helpful in battle...less so on the front porch and lawns of america

Possibly the least appropriate fucker to teach civilian police forces ever

The Warrior cult of america is sick as fuck as any google of “sheepdogs versus wolves” will show you

slides nicely into the current BLM situation as the black american male is the default “wolf” in the racist American narrative
 
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