Julie Burchill's attack on transsexuals...

[Sirena]

From a blog on this subject




I understand the need for understanding and empathy, like, but if I'd read that article first and not this, and come across the line "most women don't have penises", I'd think it was a flippant gag in an odd context. I dunno. I'm pretty much not horrible to anybody - in fact the opposite - but I'm increasingly thinking there are a fair few young people (lol) into politics determined to categorise, analyse, weigh, judge, finger-point, slate, talk down to and generally out-minutae every fucker who for one reason or another uses the wrong word or doesn't understand stuff. Highlighting differences not comparing the ways in which we're the same, like.

Yes, there is a lot of political sanctimony about....

 

[Stoat Boy]

I read a comment yesterday about how this spate was the perfect example of Identity politics eating itself.

Do you all really care that much about this ? Does it really matter in any sort of way, shape or form ?

 

[Steel Icarus]

I expect trans people are pretty interested. I'm more interested how many non-trans people are flocking to put their two-pennorth in (not here, obv, this is a informative thread, not just a load of people shouting "bastard" at journalists who don't care and can't hear them).

 

[Balbi]

I read a comment yesterday about how this spate was the perfect example of Identity politics eating itself.

Do you all really care that much about this ? Does it really matter in any sort of way, shape or form ?

It's interesting in the wagon circling of a certain set of journalists, and the discussion about language and collective stuff, and basic courtesy.

 

[Stoat Boy]

I expect trans people are pretty interested.

But why would they be ? Ok, so somebody is born a man but reckons they should have been a woman. So they get a load of drugs, get bits chopped off or added and expect to be called Ms.

Surely then what matters is them just cracking on with dealing with all the slings and arrows that befall the rest of society ? They were a man, now they are a woman so move along, nothing to see here now.

 

[Balbi]

But why would they be ? Ok, so somebody is born a man but reckons they should have been a woman. So they get a load of drugs, get bits chopped off or added and expect to be called Ms.

Surely then what matters is them just cracking on with dealing with all the slings and arrows that befall the rest of society ? They were a man, now they are a woman so move along, nothing to see here now.

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone else thought that.

 

[Balbi]

My housemate made a comparison regarding identity etc last night that part amused, part interested me.

Trans men and women are much more accepted than they were, but have further to go than women - however, the switch of such a core identity feature just about makes them the gender/sex equivalent to the black to white skin process Michael Jackson went though. It creeps people out, and provokes extreme reaction - across the spectrum of political ideology and social groupings.

 

[bi0boy]

My housemate made a comparison regarding identity etc last night that part amused, part interested me.

Trans men and women are much more accepted than they were, but have further to go than women - however, the switch of such a core identity feature just about makes them the gender/sex equivalent black to white process Michael Jackson went though.

Not really a useful comparison. Transsexualism involves changing the body's sex to match one's gender which is defined by the architecture of the brain.

I'm pretty sure skin colour is only defined by the colour of your skin and that MJ wasn't a "white man born in the wrong body".

 

[Balbi]

Not really a useful comparison. Transsexualism involves changing the body's sex to match one's gender which is defined by the architecture of the brain.

I'm pretty sure skin colour is only defined by the colour of your skin and that MJ wasn't a "white man born in the wrong body".

I think it was more the reference to the reaction of him being 'white skinned' - equivalent to the flinch test with 3D modelling. How a change of appearance can provoke some weird forms of thought surrounding and targeting that person.

 

[smokedout]

I think it was more the reference to the reaction of him being 'white skinned' - equivalent to the flinch test with 3D modelling. How a change of appearance can provoke some weird forms of thought surrounding and targeting that person.

I think you're onto something here, a lot of the crap from Bindel etc reads like its a kind of visceral prejudice to something they don't feel and can't empathise with, and because that makes them uncomfortable theyve tried to justify that prejudice with a theory

It's very reminiscent of some people's reaction to gay and lesbian sexualities

 

[Balbi]

*wags tail excitedly*



It's a challenge to their understanding, not their words or actions, and it provokes a strong response. Like the idea that I think Sagan proposed which was the first reaction of a human to a genuine alien being would be puking up and running away. It's the 'other' that has no frame of reference, or requires you to change - not good for many.

 

[Santino]

Not really a useful comparison. Transsexualism involves changing the body's sex to match one's gender which is defined by the architecture of the brain.

To what extent is it accepted that one's gender is defined by a the innate physiological structure of the brain?

 

[smokedout]

yes, and it is a challenge to the idea of gender as a social construct, which by and large it is and its a useful way to think about gender politically, but it's not a done deal scientifically and things like body dysmorphia, possible neurological differences between genders etc are not in any way understood

and even if gender is, completely, a social construct (which means so is trans-genderism) then why should people who are trans be held to a higher standard then anyone else who adopts a gendered role, which is all of us to some degree

 

[Balbi]

Yeah, the theorists have done the theory - now the pesky neuroscientists need to get the brain equivalent of the Large Hadron Collider and sort it out

 

[bi0boy]

To what extent is it accepted that one's gender is defined by a the innate physiological structure of the brain?

Pretty much: http://www.shb-info.org/sexbrain.html

And trans people's brain show their gender traits: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html

 

[newbie]

I'm increasingly thinking there are a fair few young people (lol) into politics determined to categorise, analyse, weigh, judge, finger-point, slate, talk down to and generally out-minutae every fucker who for one reason or another uses the wrong word or doesn't understand stuff. Highlighting differences not comparing the ways in which we're the same, like.

I've had this recent feeling about how similar this is becoming to the late 70s/early 80s when there was loads of thrashing around out-minutaeing on identity liberation subjects, all the while with other groups intoning "it's just a distraction from the class struggle comrades".


Perhaps I'm wrong, no evidence other than memory, but I've nearly posted something similar on both the LP and SWP threads in the last few days, because the memory is so strong.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Perhaps I'm wrong

No, you're right. It was my experience of some of the more batshit fringes of feminism at that time.

 

[butchersapron]

I've had this recent feeling about how similar this is becoming to the late 70s/early 80s when there was loads of thrashing around out-minutaeing on identity liberation subjects, all the while with other groups intoning "it's just a distraction from the class struggle comrades".


Perhaps I'm wrong, no evidence other than memory, but I've nearly posted something similar on both the LP and SWP threads in the last few days, because the memory is so strong.

Leaving the real class/material politics to the right to take over. Maybe this is what happens when you squeeze the middle.

 

[Sirena]

To what extent is it accepted that one's gender is defined by a the innate physiological structure of the brain?

If you google 'bed nucleus of the stria terminalis' you will find loads of links to an important 1995 paper.

 

[newbie]

Leaving the real class/material politics to the right to take over. Maybe this is what happens when you squeeze the middle.

that's sort of what I was wondering.

question is, why?

 

[Firky]

But why would they be ? Ok, so somebody is born a man but reckons they should have been a woman. So they get a load of drugs, get bits chopped off or added and expect to be called Ms.

Surely then what matters is them just cracking on with dealing with all the slings and arrows that befall the rest of society ? They were a man, now they are a woman so move along, nothing to see here now.

Pixie dust, kittens, cupcakes and a world where society just shrugs it's shoulders and carries on.

What world is that? I don't recognise it.

 

[Balbi]

http://33revolutionsperminute.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/the-burchill-ultimatum/

In Alan Moore’s graphic novel Watchmen (spoiler warning by the way), the messianic billionaire superhero known as Ozymandias decides on a drastic plan to bring the world back from the brink of nuclear annihilation. He arranges a fake alien invasion, in the form of a giant psychedelic squid which wipes out half of Manhattan, in order to unite the warring factions in mutual horror and make their own grievances seem petty in comparison. Yesterday Twitter was Manhattan, Julie Burchill was Ozymandias and her Observer column about transsexuals was the giant psychedelic squid.

This article is good.

 

[butchersapron]

And no one else even noticed. That they'd built a statue.

 

[cesare]

The Observer's withdrawn Burchill's piece: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/14/1

 

[butchersapron]

You can't withdraw it. You can disassociate yourself (and the way you do things and the networks they rely on) from the piece.

 

[butchersapron]

The comments posted beneath the article have also been removed in line with our deletion process and as a result these comments will no longer appear in individual users' profiles.

 

[cesare]

Erase it and the comments that it provoked

 

[butchersapron]

The Mulholland school of falsification.

 

[cesare]

You can't withdraw it. You can disassociate yourself (and the way you do things and the networks they rely on) from the piece.

Yes, it's like people that "purge" an email after everyone's received it. Doesn't make it go away.

 

[sihhi]

The Observer's withdrawn Burchill's piece: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/14/1

Probably in response to millionaire from Highgate Lib Dem MP Lynne Featherstone calling for the Observer to sack her even though I believe she is a freelancer