equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Stop oppressing with your predatorynessFuuuuuuuuuuuuucking hell. I'm in the predator class.
AWESOME.
Julie Burchill's attack on transsexuals...
- Thread starter stuff_it
- Start date
Sirena
Don't monkey with the buzzsaw
I'm not sure what 'hatred' she might be thinking of, at least any coming from the transgender community. There, of course, has been a lot of antagonism, in the other direction, from certain hard-line sections of the women's movement, since the days of 'The Transsexual Empire' (1979 - when the world transsexual population probably didn't even pass a thousand or so!) and certain defensive stances may have been taken by the TG community.
I think what the problem is here is that, whereas the modern social experience is accepting a huge blurry area in the middle of the two sexes, some antique feminist politics can only cope within clear dualism. I think even Germaine Greer has accepted the changed reality and has softened her antagonism of late.
Balbi
Hey, Dean Yager!
Stop oppressing with your predatoryness
Given the not so subtle message in the Alien trilogy, AvP and AvP requiem may be the two most relevant gender binary films in the history of the world
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
There has been a lot of hate directed towards Bindel regarding her writings regarding trans people, because she despises them and has said so repeatedly over many years e.g. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jan/31/gender.weekend7 "Gender benders, beware" in, er, the Guardian, from 2004.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
You're still oppressing me with your predatoryness :Given the not so subtle message in the Alien trilogy, AvP and AvP requiem may be the two most relevant gender binary films in the history of the world
Shows just how easily the "all politics is identity politics" concept can be used to justify straightforward bigotry.
Was it the EDL or BNP who describe themselves "A civil rights group for white people" yeah the far-right are going to lap this stuff up.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
well yes there was already that "charity for the ethnic english" (
) that the BNP set up. Also i've seen zionists talking about "gentile privilege" on zionist blogs, not that there is not a problem with anti-semitism within the left which a lot of people dont see and I would be the first person to point out, but i've seen that sort of shit from "anti-zionist jews", if somebody is saying bigoted shit it's still shit no matter who says it, and also my criticism is that it contributes to racialisation of the public discourse, so somebody saying something is not attacked for what they say but for what group they come from (or don't come from) whereas surely if they've said it and it's incorrect it doesn't make a difference how oppressed they are, they would still be wrong regardless 
Sirena
Don't monkey with the buzzsaw
I think it is obviously wrong for people to pick on a sector of the population regularly or obsessively. I don't know Bindel or if she does that.
In the particular case she mentions, I have sympathy with her and I think the transsexual in question should, maybe, have thought deeply before pursuing the matter so vigorously - into the courts: just because it was about rape. Laws change instantly but society and its thought patterns tend to change more slowly and organically.
I am part of the pagan world (traditionally very liberal) but, in the last year, mostly from the USA, there has been an almighty hoo-ha about transsexuals and whether m-f transsexuals should be allowed into womens' self-awareness groups. On the one hand, some US feminist pagan women are fiercely against this and, on the other, some transsexuals are 'demanding' the right and are claiming discrimination if they are denied. I think the UK opinion is largely that both sides should back off and chill-out a bit.
A m-f transsexual starts out as a male. It may be quite a masculine male: big bones, deep voice and all the rest. After years of hormone treatment, body-fat moves and features soften. Also, in a less measurable way, the 'electricity' of a person starts to change. Presumably, the transsexual is also working on their voice and general self-presentation.
If a woman, in a very sensitive situation, is asked to accept the first model as a woman, it will be very hard and it may not be reasonable to expect her to do it easily. Later on, it may become easier and the reasonable expectation may be that she should.
But it's not black and white. The whole transsexual experience is about this blurriness. The transsexual is in some liminal position and, while they self-identify as a transsexual, they should be prepared to accommodate the feelings of others. Later, if they are convincing in their chosen role, they can let their past melt away and disappear into society and forget/deny their starting condition. But that is probably for the few, not the most.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
It's amazing how trans men might as well not exist in all of these discussions, btw, except as an afterthought.
Balbi
Hey, Dean Yager!
I was sort of working on assumptions there. So yes, from my standpoint trans women are women.
I suppose in some case the anger and fury of some feminist writers, the absolute polarity of thought intended to waken women from whence they slumbered might have unduly influenced the sleepers. Like a really annoying alarm clock that your housemate has, which puts you in a bad mood all day.
I suppose in some case the anger and fury of some feminist writers, the absolute polarity of thought intended to waken women from whence they slumbered might have unduly influenced the sleepers. Like a really annoying alarm clock that your housemate has, which puts you in a bad mood all day.
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
Check your predator privilege!Stop oppressing with your predatoryness
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Well yeah, exactly!!
Balbi
Hey, Dean Yager!
Pfft, traitors to the sisterhood
. I've been quite careful to define and note that I am talking about trans women in this case, because this case is about trans-women. Moore used brazilian transsexual to refer to an idealised feminine form, and was pulled up on it because she didn't say trans woman. The debate from there is centred on trans women.
Trans men - that'll be a good talk.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
I am not predatoring. Wait, maybe I'm anti-predators. Perhaps I need to encourage balbi in his predatoryness, predating in the jungles.
I thank you for insisting on the privilege check, sister.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I'm not talking about discussion here - which is going to be led by what's being commented on, reasonably enough - but more generally. One of the fantasies of a certain strand of commentators seems to be that trans is only something involving "men pretending to be women" for assorted invalid and predatory reasons.Pfft, traitors to the sisterhood
I've been quite careful to define and note that I am talking about trans women in this case, because this case is about trans-women. Moore used brazilian transsexual to refer to an idealised feminine form, and was pulled up on it because she didn't say trans woman. The debate from there is centred on trans women.
Trans men - that'll be a good talk.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Yep, trans men may as well not to exist to them. And if they do exist, they're traitors.
TheHoodedClaw
acknowledging ur soup leg
Should put a warning, I have only been reading about this for two or three days, about five hours of reading total
A reminder.
Sirena
Don't monkey with the buzzsaw
That wasn't originally the case. At the turn of the 20th century, male impersonators were everywhere in the music hall, whereas female impersonators were less common. Male hormones were isolated in the 30s and were available to women who wanted to live as men (female hormones were not available till the late 40s). The first British transsexual was f-m: Laura Dillon, a member of the aristocracy, who in 1938 was the first woman to take male hormones with a view to changing sex. She was helped by Sir Harold Gillies, a surgeon who had pioneered plastic surgery techniques on disfigured WW1 veterans. She became Michael Dillon and, as a male, spent the latter part of his life trying to become a buddhist monk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Dillon
This is key:
A radical nurture over nature doctrine that should have died in the 60's means she cannot accept that is such a thing as gender identity. I think Sirena above is wrong, on the contrary Julie Bindel insists that the lines are blurred but transgendered people are a reminder that the lines not blurred to the extent that they are willing to undergo surgery because of how they feel about themselves. It's brittle feminism that cannot tolerate it's doctrines being challenged.
Reno
The In Kraut
Most successful academy award winning actor in Sylvia Scarlett, 1935. Posted only because it's a good film until the final third. Cary Grant's cockney wideboy's bloody awful though.
...and nothing to do with being transgender.
ska invita
back on the other side
white kids are plenty involved in gang related gun and knife crime in UK cities too
Steel Icarus
we move
From a blog on this subject
I understand the need for understanding and empathy, like, but if I'd read that article first and not this, and come across the line "most women don't have penises", I'd think it was a flippant gag in an odd context. I dunno. I'm pretty much not horrible to anybody - in fact the opposite - but I'm increasingly thinking there are a fair few young people (lol) into politics determined to categorise, analyse, weigh, judge, finger-point, slate, talk down to and generally out-minutae every fucker who for one reason or another uses the wrong word or doesn't understand stuff. Highlighting differences not comparing the ways in which we're the same, like.
I understand the need for understanding and empathy, like, but if I'd read that article first and not this, and come across the line "most women don't have penises", I'd think it was a flippant gag in an odd context. I dunno. I'm pretty much not horrible to anybody - in fact the opposite - but I'm increasingly thinking there are a fair few young people (lol) into politics determined to categorise, analyse, weigh, judge, finger-point, slate, talk down to and generally out-minutae every fucker who for one reason or another uses the wrong word or doesn't understand stuff. Highlighting differences not comparing the ways in which we're the same, like.
Similar threads
