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Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

cantsin said:
“ why are the left obsessed with South Africa ... or Nicaragua ... or the miners .... or the poll tax ... or fascists .... etc etc , forever “ ..

always something eh
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There's (obviously) nothing wrong with supporting the Palestinians - and people can spend as long on it as they want. But I think the issue being discussed here is how it becomes a currency among the left, a touchstone, a red line. If you treat it in that way, as well as becoming an alternative to getting involved in your own community, it becomes an 'easy issue', with pre-programmed responses.
 
Wilf said:
There's (obviously) nothing wrong with supporting the Palestinians - and people can spend as long on it as they want. But I think the issue being discussed here is how it becomes a currency among the left, a touchstone, a red line. If you treat it in that way, as well as becoming an alternative to getting involved in your own community, it becomes an 'easy issue', with pre-programmed responses.
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And also, because this has been happening for such a long time, it’s how those in the community express opposition to govt/state/etc. Particularly people my age and younger, we have never known any other way.
 
MadeInBedlam said:
Carry on as before I guess
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I'm not interested in the serial trots, the green and lib dem voters though. I actually don't want to be an enemy of long term comrades like cantsin. I don't want to be denounced as an enemy of the party and want them to see what membership is doing to them.
 
Sure, and without wanting to sound glib, my experience is that no amount of patient explanation/acts of solidarity/exasperation or whatever can get anyone to see that they’re being used by those who couldn’t give a fuck about them. It’s exhautsing. I’m exhausted.
 
It’s been a long old bloody week or two, + late fri / over the yard arm posting not always advisable :facepalm:

accept lots of essential truth in much of Lab Left / Mom critique on here, and that it comes from a good place ( horrible phrase ), especially compared to the madness of Twotter etc - will STFU for a bit
 
Wilf said:
You put it better, but that's been exactly my take on the failure of Corbyn(ism), particularly the underlined. At one level what you suggest would require them to acquire some new instincts, to become less labourist, less procedural, less bound by the organisation of the party, less social democratic even. But then it also seems so obvious, so much an obvious way of building a movement, a new set of relationships, a way of exceeding the limits of the Labour left from Benn onwards. It's also the most obvious concrete response to the Brexit vote and the reasons for it. Labour would still need to respond to Brexit at the Parliamentary level, but the approach you suggest would transform what and who Labour were responding to/for.
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I think people are being a little unrealistic about capacity and also glossing over what has been happening the last couple of years.
I'm not a member of the LP, nor that familiar with the structure, but I do hear a few bits and pieces, so my take is based on that sketchy hearsay. Interested if others have anything to add.

First off there have been hard won fights at the higher levels, PLP and branch. Right wingers in the party have their backs increasingly to the wall and many feel their days are numbered. That didn't happen with no effort, and there is more to be done. TINGE don't recognise the party and don't feel welcome in it, proof of change.

The process of democratising the party is ongoing...

New members are massively put off at what they find at their local CLPs. There's often a massive us v them culture clash amongst party members new and old. Not only are meetings often boring but also fractious. It would take a lot to resolve that culture. Old guard are massively resistant to change, or doing anything.

CLP Political Education Officers are one angle where work is beginning to happen, an attempt to inject politics into local groups where politics went out the window over recent decades. It's early days but I'm aware of some early steps and good things in the pipeline. Momentum playing a role.

I've heard of a spate of new socialist social clubs opening in the Midlands and North particularly, linked to but independent of the LP.

Okay, that's all I've got.

Another factor is the black hole of brexit which is sucking the life out of party politics on several levels. That should change drastically by the end of the year.

Corbyn and a corbynist party does best during an election campaign and as has been said it will be a test to see what energy exists come that time. And to go back quickly to capacity, people are squeezed for free time and resources like never before. I've got a long list of things I'd like to see too, embedded in communities, but it's not going to happen without more culture and personnel change at the local level ... It's going to take time.
 
Point missing post. In fact, making it all about internal labour party stuff. Exactly what's being criticised. None of the things patteran mentioned need party say so. Not fucking one of them. And that was the point. Football fans will do more this weekend to make what should happen happen than momentum.
 
Wilf said:
There's (obviously) nothing wrong with supporting the Palestinians...
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And also what does supporting 'the palestinians' mean (even ignoring the fact that much of this support means nothing in reality)? What bit of the struggle are people supporting? There's a huge tendency among some of the left to just flatten complex struggles out into one indistinguishable simple mass, often taking the side of the most public face and ignoring the tendency closest to their own politics.

One of the problems with this 'support' is exactly what's happened here. It's a de-politicised and de-contextualized vague support that can leave people open to all sorts of dodgy political ideas that come along that seem to fit the simplistic views held.
 
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ska invita said:
I think people are being a little unrealistic about capacity and also glossing over what has been happening the last couple of years.
I'm not a member of the LP, nor that familiar with the structure, but I do hear a few bits and pieces, so my take is based on that sketchy hearsay. Interested if others have anything to add.

First off there have been hard won fights at the higher levels, PLP and branch. Right wingers in the party have their backs increasingly to the wall and many feel their days are numbered. That didn't happen with no effort, and there is more to be done. TINGE don't recognise the party and don't feel welcome in it, proof of change.

The process of democratising the party is ongoing...

New members are massively put off at what they find at their local CLPs. There's often a massive us v them culture clash amongst party members new and old. Not only are meetings often boring but also fractious. It would take a lot to resolve that culture. Old guard are massively resistant to change, or doing anything.

CLP Political Education Officers are one angle where work is beginning to happen, an attempt to inject politics into local groups where politics went out the window over recent decades. It's early days but I'm aware of some early steps and good things in the pipeline. Momentum playing a role.

I've heard of a spate of new socialist social clubs opening in the Midlands and North particularly, linked to but independent of the LP.

Okay, that's all I've got.

Another factor is the black hole of brexit which is sucking the life out of party politics on several levels. That should change drastically by the end of the year.

Corbyn and a corbynist party does best during an election campaign and as has been said it will be a test to see what energy exists come that time. And to go back quickly to capacity, people are squeezed for free time and resources like never before. I've got a long list of things I'd like to see too, embedded in communities, but it's not going to happen without more culture and personnel change at the local level ... It's going to take time.
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I'd sort of accept a fair bit of this, but then disagree with exactly the same points, along the lines of Butcher's reply to you. Yes, certainly, there's a lot of effort goes into just 'being a party' and battles aplenty in terms of the right, established practices and the rest. I'd also note that the rise in Corbyn friendly membership didn't automatically translate into a majority of active members in every constituency - people who saw joining (or becoming supporters) as something not much more than clicktivism. But then why was that the case? Why wasn't there, ahem, momentum, things to get involved in, things that didn't have to be approved by layers of bureaucracy? Even more so, why wasn't there a mindset that extra-party community organising could/should happen? Why didn't people take those risks or even have those instincts? The Labour Party and unions have loads of buildings for a kick off. In some ways, I think it's because the Bennites and trots who have become the new left activists just don't believe in that and so leave themselves locked into the processes you describe.

The Labour Party of Miliband and the rest did little to connect to working class life and certainly wasn't rooted in it. That seems to be still the case under Corbyn, even (and perhaps especially) after the Brexit vote. At one level, the last thing I want see is politicians 'reconnecting with voters', but surely that's what a left of centre party should be seeking to do. Reconnecting isn't just about speeches and policies.
 
LynnDoyleCooper said:
And also what does supporting 'the palestinians' mean (even ignoring the fact that much of this support means nothing in reality)? What bit of the struggle are people supporting? There's a huge tendency among some of the left to just flatten complex struggles out into one indistinguishable simple mass, often taking the side of the most public face and ignoring the tendency closest to their own politics.

One of the problems with this 'support' is exactly what's happened here. It's a de-politicised and de-contextualized vague support that can leave people open to all sorts of dodgy political ideas that come along that seem to fit the simplistic views held.
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Yeah, I'm reminded of Kenan Malik's criticisms of top-down state multiculturalism - as a conservative process that sees minority cultures as fixed entities and borders, where everyone believes the same and has the same values.
 
Wilf said:
I'd sort of accept a fair bit of this, but then disagree with exactly the same points, along the lines of Butcher's reply to you. Yes, certainly, there's a lot of effort goes into just 'being a party' and battles aplenty in terms of the right, established practices and the rest. I'd also note that the rise in Corbyn friendly membership didn't automatically translate into a majority of active members in every constituency - people who saw joining (or becoming supporters) as something not much more than clicktivism. But then why was that the case? Why wasn't there, ahem, momentum, things to get involved in, things that didn't have to be approved by layers of bureaucracy? Even more so, why wasn't there a mindset that extra-party community organising could/should happen? Why didn't people take those risks or even have those instincts? The Labour Party and unions have loads of buildings for a kick off. In some ways, I think it's because the Bennites and trots who have become the new left activists just don't believe in that and so leave themselves locked into the processes you describe.

The Labour Party of Miliband and the rest did little to connect to working class life and certainly wasn't rooted in it. That seems to be still the case under Corbyn, even (and perhaps especially) after the Brexit vote. At one level, the last thing I want see is politicians 'reconnecting with voters', but surely that's what a left of centre party should be seeking to do. Reconnecting isn't just about speeches and policies.
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I haven't got any deep disagreement with that, I think my point in posting on this subject at all is to try and get a realistic picture of where we are now, and contrast that with what we'd like to see. You're probably right that on the whole, across the strata there is little ideological belief or inclination in the kind of grassroots activity that Patteran set out. But that doesnt mean it cant be nurtured.

I dont know how to measure if people had or have the instinct for extra-party community organising or not, but anecdotally some people did start going along on at the local level ready for any thing and many didnt hang around for long after getting a taste of what the local party level had to offer.
I was told a story by a woman who struggled to even put an open-to-the public film screening on at her CLP. Another wanting to nominate someone for Political Education Officer but the bemused old guard there saying a PEO "wasn't necessary". Suggests theres a lot of serious stagnation out there.

Id expect the LP/Momentum does have resources, the struggle is to activate them. A part of the barrier is existing LP members, who have been sat on their arses for however many years and happy to keep going through the tedious motions. Again anecdotally, many CLP regulars are 50 years and above, and lots don't want or like change.

Definitely more could come from the centre of the party to kick local levels into action.
As I said, Momentum is about to push for and help create political education activities at a local level - I think thats an important step. But its undeniable that this is against a backdrop of a party overall somewhat still at war with itself, and not in a position of unity or shared vision. And at central level its surely nonstop energy sapping firefighting.

I know from my own experience of endless meetings, a single old guard person or two in a group can have a massive impact in stopping and blocking activity, and it can take a long time and perseverance to change cultures and get those blockers out of the way. I dont think its impossible to bring in a culture of grassroots activity within the LP, but it will take continued strategic time and effort, and being clear about what is stopping it on all levels.
 
ska invita said:
I haven't got any deep disagreement with that, I think my point in posting on this subject at all is to try and get a realistic picture of where we are now, and contrast that with what we'd like to see. You're probably right that on the whole, across the strata there is little ideological belief or inclination in the kind of grassroots activity that Patteran set out. But that doesnt mean it cant be nurtured.

I dont know how to measure if people had or have the instinct for extra-party community organising or not, but anecdotally some people did start going along on at the local level ready for any thing and many didnt hang around for long after getting a taste of what the local party level had to offer.
I was told a story by a woman who struggled to even put an open-to-the public film screening on at her CLP. Another wanting to nominate someone for Political Education Officer but the bemused old guard there saying a PEO "wasn't necessary". Suggests theres a lot of serious stagnation out there.

Id expect the LP/Momentum does have resources, the struggle is to activate them. A part of the barrier is existing LP members, who have been sat on their arses for however many years and happy to keep going through the tedious motions. Again anecdotally, many CLP regulars are 50 years and above, and lots don't want or like change.

Definitely more could come from the centre of the party to kick local levels into action.
As I said, Momentum is about to push for and help create political education activities at a local level - I think thats an important step. But its undeniable that this is against a backdrop of a party overall somewhat still at war with itself, and not in a position of unity or shared vision. And at central level its surely nonstop energy sapping firefighting.

I know from my own experience of endless meetings, a single old guard person or two in a group can have a massive impact in stopping and blocking activity, and it can take a long time and perseverance to change cultures and get those blockers out of the way. I dont think its impossible to bring in a culture of grassroots activity within the LP, but it will take continued strategic time and effort, and being clear about what is stopping it on all levels.
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Meant to reply to Wilf on this and forgot. In Yorkshire we (Socialist Party) did a mapping exercise of Momentum meetings when it was first launched - seems ages ago now but initially they got hundreds of people at each local meeting. Positive development obviously but we were thinking we might have to start doing work inside Momentum if not the LP itself, which we would have done if necessary but I wasn't personally looking forward to it.

In the event, on average it took about 3 meetings in each town and city we looked at for meetings to drop from huge numbers to a handful. I breathed a sigh of relief, possibly selfishly.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
This hints of growing desperation. Of course poverty and climate change are more important but they can’t be addressed without addressing the economic systems and constitutional systems that exist and which produce them. The fact that Corbyn seems to be retreating into a student politics comfort bunker on this stuff is both abysmal and concerning

Poverty and climate more important than Brexit, says Corbyn
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They can be alleviated though by an (updated) return to policies we had during the Post War Social Contract. Major investments in renewables and infrastructure, reverse austerity by quantitative easing, rent control and pulling in the huge taxes that are being evaded and the like. Which isn't far from Corbyn's policies.

Getting rid of the tories would be a start. You make it sound like revolutionary socialism/anarchism has simple solutions to our problems, which is sort of retreating into a student politics comfort bunker.
 
How will this return to the post war social contract be brought about when the conditions that brought about that post-war social contract do not exist anymore?

And we should be clear that a return to the post-war social contract is not what Labour is proposing, their policies fall a long, long way short of that. For example all the Labour Party are united in councils not setting illegal budgets, so how does the LP intend to stop councils being the agents of austerity? The LP has not challenged the idea of an independent BoE, so if (when) it's policies start to interfere with capital how does it intend to deal with the BoE?
 
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Spoke to a couple of mates in the Labour Party the other. One has gone from voting for Corbyn to inactiviy, not have been to a meeting or anything in months. Another is now arguing for the need for a new, centrist leader.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
This hints of growing desperation. Of course poverty and climate change are more important but they can’t be addressed without addressing the economic systems and constitutional systems that exist and which produce them. The fact that Corbyn seems to be retreating into a student politics comfort bunker on this stuff is both abysmal and concerning

Poverty and climate more important than Brexit, says Corbyn
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Did you read the article or just the headline? You know thats the Guardian right?

Corbyn made probably the best political points he's made in a while (low bar I know).

Try this and have a think next time eh?

Redirect Notice
 
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