Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[redsquirrel]

I’m not sure you can describe the welfare state, NHS, free education, millions of council houses, public ownership of utilities, thirty years of low rents and full employment, and repayment of huge national debt as a ‘mirage’..

The PWSC isn't the mirage, the mirage is believing that the PWSC can be repeated now when the conditions that brought about the PWSC no longer exist.

EDIT: Or to be more accurate to the mirage is to connect the sort of social democracy you are arguing for to a renewed PWSC.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I think this would be a good moment for a recap.

So far Mr Corbyn has seen off David Cameron, George Osborne and Nick Clegg. As this article reports, he will soon be seeing Vince Cable off too.

That just leaves Theresa May for the full set. Mirror Politics on Twitter

The last and greatest achievement will be when his 'time is up' thread reaches 1,000 pages and his time is still not up.

 

[two sheds]

The PWSC isn't the mirage, the mirage is believing that the PWSC can be repeated now when the conditions that brought about the PWSC no longer exist.

Yes fair enough.

Pretty much like the mirage that conditions are going to improve for british people without voting out the tories and investing in people and infrastructure, then.

 

[redsquirrel]

Yes fair enough.

Pretty much like the mirage that conditions are going to improve for british people without voting out the tories and investing in people and infrastructure, then.

Oh come on. I point out your misunderstanding of what butchers was saying and that's the best you can come up.

You've argued for a return to the PWSC, fine. But don't pretend that criticism of your understanding of what the PWSC was and how it was brought about is support for the Tories. And don't pretend that this is some great new dawn for the Labour Party when you are making exactly the same arguments that Madelson and Blair did - we're better than the Tories.

EDIT: Incidentally this also contradicts your claims about the PWSC. If we take the 25 years from 45 to 70 then the Tories were in power for as long as Labour were. So is it the Tories that are the problem or something more fundamental ?

 

[Shechemite]

Who is the real Kebab King, eh kebabking ?

Jeremy Corbyn admits he love kebab shops despite being vegetarian

 

[Sprocket.]

Who is the real Kebab King, eh kebabking ?

Jeremy Corbyn admits he love kebab shops despite being vegetarian

Probably the only thing Corbyn as in common with ordinary people!

 

[treelover]

Fast food shops are under lots of scrutiny now

 

[two sheds]

Oh come on. I point out your misunderstanding of what butchers was saying and that's the best you can come up.

No, I acknowledged the misunderstanding. I'm pointing out that you don't have a solution for the problem either. The contempt I see on here for democratic socialism suggests an arrogance that you have a simple solution to improving conditions for people that is being missed. It's just as much a mirage to suggest that a revolution (which of course I'd love to see given certain fairly major conditions) is going to do anything better.

Or am I wrong? I've laid out some ideas that I think would improve conditions with an estimate (say 1 in 5 chance) of Corbyn carrying it out. I don't know how successful it would be, but what else should you do than invest in infrastructure and people? Where are your detailed plans for getting the tories out and improving peoples' economic conditons, with percentage chances of success? The question is so outrageous for urban that I've never seen it asked and certainly never seen it answered. Give it a go.

You've argued for a return to the PWSC, fine. But don't pretend that criticism of your understanding of what the PWSC was and how it was brought about is support for the Tories. And don't pretend that this is some great new dawn for the Labour Party when you are making exactly the same arguments that Madelson and Blair did - we're better than the Tories.

Where did I say that it's just a matter of "we're better than the tories"? Where did I pretend this is some great new dawn for the Labour Party? Stop inventing stuff. I hate trying to discuss things on here because of the insults and the contemptuous straw men that are invented. I don't know whether Corbyn's policies will work, I just don't see a better chance of success. And where did Mandelson and Blair suggest a £500 billion quantitative easing by the way, plus the other policies Corbyn has suggested? A clue: they didn't.

I don't think I've actually suggested that criticism of some small return to the PWSC is support for the tories. If you're leaving the tories in power carrying out their policies with no plan to get rid of them, though, then I could just as well say you are the Tories . See I can do insults, too. It doesn't actually get us further.

EDIT: Incidentally this also contradicts your claims about the PWSC. If we take the 25 years from 45 to 70 then the Tories were in power for as long as Labour were. So is it the Tories that are the problem or something more fundamental ?

Where's the contradiction? Both tory and labour governments carried on with the PWSC. Since 79 we've had neoliberalism under both tory and labour governments. The problem is the rampant capitalism for the rich with resulting austerity for the poor. How else do we address that than getting rid of the tories? And of course getting new labour into power would be no different.

I don't particularly like what's been happening in the Labour party over the last couple of years. It's the PWSC-style policies that I support.

 

[Sue]

Who is the real Kebab King, eh kebabking ?

Jeremy Corbyn admits he love kebab shops despite being vegetarian

Think most of Green Lanes (Turkish area with loads of restaurants and kebab shops) is in his constituency so guess he kind of has to say that. (And tbf who doesn't love a falafel wrap.)

 

[Rob Ray]

It's just as much a mirage to suggest that a revolution (which of course I'd love to see given certain fairly major conditions) is going to do anything better.

Sometimes I feel like there should be a bell or something for when people who should really know better offer up this crap as an argument. As though anyone on any thread on Urban has ever remotely suggested shouting REVOLUTION COMRADES is the best/only alternative to election-chasing. If you're going to argue about the efficacy of direct action and extra-parliamentary mass politics at least argue on its active merits rather than falling back on sub-Daily Mail sneering that your opponent is Citizen Smith.

 

[DotCommunist]

I saw the corbyn kebab thing, framed in terms of brexit is on and the wankers at a kebab gig, he's not even a meat eater!

not as funny as the time he was found to be at the Allotment Society AGM mid coup attempt tho.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, I acknowledged the misunderstanding. I'm pointing out that you don't have a solution for the problem either. The contempt I see on here for democratic socialism suggests an arrogance that you have a simple solution to improving conditions for people that is being missed. It's just as much a mirage to suggest that a revolution (which of course I'd love to see given certain fairly major conditions) is going to do anything better.

any revolution you care to examine will have done some things well, others frankly poorly. you don't have a revolution so everything's done better: that isn't going to happen from the get-go, it'll take some time to right things. but there's vast quantities of human labour which go into doing things which if they aren't actually actively destructive of the planet then are wasteful useless toil. but the major reason for a revolution isn't that everything would miraculously get better but that we'd no longer have today's fat pigs lording it over everyone, that people would be able to work together in ways that simply aren't possible now. the problem now with democratic socialism is its absence. i'd love to see some democratic socialism but it's just not available.

 

[chilango]

I've lost count of the amount of posts over the years on here outlining, often small but often concrete, ways in which people can improve stuff with "extra-parliamentary" action.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

exactly the same arguments that Madelson and Blair did - we're better than the Tories.

not to be confused with the brown / milliband offer which was "we are marginally less shit than the tories"

 

[redsquirrel]

No, I acknowledged the misunderstanding. I'm pointing out that you don't have a solution for the problem either. The contempt I see on here for democratic socialism suggests an arrogance that you have a simple solution to improving conditions for people that is being missed. It's just as much a mirage to suggest that a revolution (which of course I'd love to see given certain fairly major conditions) is going to do anything better.

No one's mentioned revolution. It's a bit bloody rich for you to talk about straw men and keep on coming back to this false dichotomy.

Or am I wrong? I've laid out some ideas that I think would improve conditions with an estimate (say 1 in 5 chance) of Corbyn carrying it out. I don't know how successful it would be, but what else should you do than invest in infrastructure and people? Where are your detailed plans for getting the tories out and improving peoples' economic conditons, with percentage chances of success? The question is so outrageous for urban that I've never seen it asked and certainly never seen it answered. Give it a go.

None of that addresses the question I raised about your claims about the PWSC. You made a claim about the PWSC, one that in my view is completely fallacious I'm asking you to defend it (or recognise that it was wrong). I don't support the Labour Party, I do think it's part of the problem but that's entirely irrelevant to your claim that the LP can resurrect the PWSC. You can be an LP supporter and still think your claim is false.

Where did I say that it's just a matter of "we're better than the tories"?

Seriously! You''ve just said that it is a mirage to believe that any improvements for the British people without voting out the Tories, while at the same time admitting that Labour councils are attacking people. I've not invented anything, I've taken your claims to their logical end.

Where's the contradiction? Both tory and labour governments carried on with the PWSC. Since 79 we've had neoliberalism under both tory and labour governments.

You don't understand how its contradictory to argue that no improvements are possible without voting out the Tories and at the same time arguing that the PWSC, which happened partly under the Tories, is contradictory?

The claims you make in one post aren't distinct from the claims you make in a separate post, there's a chain of logic here (well there should be).

 

[CNT36]

Who is the real Kebab King, eh kebabking ?

Jeremy Corbyn admits he love kebab shops despite being vegetarian

I'm vegetarian and pretty close to vegan. I go to the local one on average about twice a week. Fine establishment.

 

[hash tag]

I hear rumours he has walked out of a brexit meeting as ex labour independents are there.
what does this prove, who does this help?

 

[redsquirrel]

Yes let's work with snivelling shits like Umunna, Soubrey and co that have been attacking people for 10+ years.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I hear rumours he has walked out of a brexit meeting as ex labour independents are there.
what does this prove, who does this help?

He's always been fussy about who he meets with.

 

[hash tag]

That's the point everyone should be working with everyone not against everyone. That will get us thrown out of Europe

 

[redsquirrel]

What utter fucking guff.

My politics are directly and totally opposed to Umunna, Soubry, May, Cable and the like. How the hell can I work with these slime when their aims are directly opposed to mine. This is like the crap about how unions need to work with rather than against employers, Fuck that shit.

Tactically this, if true, is a bad move from Corbyn. But it's probably just increased the likelihood of me voting Labour by about 100%.

 

[hash tag]

Throws tantrum and walks out at one of the most important meeting/issues this century. There are times when a politician has to work with their arch enemy/opposition and this is one of them. No way to do business at the best of times.
still we know who we can rely on during a national crisis.

 

[Balbi]

Giving the fucking Independent Group a sit in and listen on Corbyn, someone they've tried to ankle-break since he got elected, talking about potential strategies over Brexit would be absolutely dreadful tbh.

 

[Balbi]

Throws tantrum and walks out at one of the most important meeting/issues this century. There are times when a politician has to work with their arch enemy/opposition and this is one of them. No way to do business at the best of times.
still we know who we can rely on during a national crisis.

Bro, wind your neck in. The most important meeting/issues this century went as follows.


So May's basically told them what's what again.

 

[Idris2002]

Giving the fucking Independent Group a sit in and listen on Corbyn, someone they've tried to ankle-break since he got elected, talking about potential strategies over Brexit would be absolutely dreadful tbh.

Why should people who stabbed their party in the back - the party they owe their entire careers to - expect that party's leader to even acknowledge their existence?

And what do people think would have come out of this meeting? Some magic beans that solve the crisis by necromancy and soothsaying?

 

[redsquirrel]

Why should people who stabbed their party in the back - the party they owe their entire careers to - expect that party's leader to even acknowledge their existence?

And what do people think would have come out of this meeting? Some magic beans that solve the crisis by necromancy and soothsaying?

But, but, but Idris think about the national interest! Don't you care about the national interest?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Splitters!

 

[Idris2002]

But, but, but Idris think about the national interest! Don't you care about the national interest?

I play for the other team, remember?

 

[Mr Moose]

What utter fucking guff.

My politics are directly and totally opposed to Umunna, Soubry, May, Cable and the like. How the hell can I work with these slime when their aims are directly opposed to mine. This is like the crap about how unions need to work with rather than against employers, Fuck that shit.

Tactically this, if true, is a bad move from Corbyn. But it's probably just increased the likelihood of me voting Labour by about 100%.

You are right about the Tinge, but that’s not a good analogy. Work is what we do with half our lives and unions should use their influence to make it better. As long as the bottom line is they will take action when required.

 

[Mr Moose]

I play for the other team, remember?

Ah, a satanist?