Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[belboid]

They might be ignoring the question, but are you maybe ignoring the answer?

No

 

[Raheem]

No

So why do you ask the question?

 

[ViolentPanda]

European union is about far more than which political parties stand in individual states or who has or hasn’t adopted the Euro, it’s a concept which replaces centuries of war and isolationism with peace through shared values and cooperation.

That'd be the centuries of war and isolationism during which the Hanseatic League was formed, alliances and mutual defence pacts were signed between many European states and buffer states, and where inter-European trade multiplied exponentially? It wasn't all wars, and isolationism was a minority pursuit for a few nation-states, not a common occurrence.

Opting out after just a couple of generations is idiotic. The EU needs a chance to reform and evolve to reflect changing times, not be abandoned completely because of its flaws

How many chances do you want to give it? It's had decades to reform and/or revolve, but the status quo appears more satisfying to the Eurocrats. What on earth induces you to believe that the leopard will change its' spots?

 

[gosub]

How many chances do you want to give it? It's had decades to reform and/or revolve, but the status quo appears more satisfying to the Eurocrats. What on earth induces you to believe that the leopard will change its' spots?

Oh no there is change, but the direction of change is unmoving, next round of reform is as inline with the Spinelli Group/ 5 Presidents report as if nothing has happened in EUrope over the last few years. Or rather the changes are sold as the next great panecea -which would make them fucking psychic seeing as the proposals predate half the problems they allege it will fix.


A return to the fold would make us the EU's gimp.
Gimp to an organisation that isn't fit for purpose.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh no there is change, but the direction of change is unmoving, next round of reform is as inline with the Spinelli Group/ 5 Presidents report as if nothing has happened in EUrope over the last few years. Or rather the changes are sold as the next great panecea -which would make them fucking psychic seeing as the proposals predate half the problems they allege it will fix.


A return to the fold would make us the EU's gimp.
Gimp to an organisation that isn't fit for purpose.

doesn't matter anyway, in eight years time we'll be longing for a return to the halcyon days of 2017, back before the big war that's on its way

 

[Gramsci]

And on top of the many interlocking blocks on renationalisation or any other similar moves, the EU requires that any natioanalisations that manage to break through the various legal ambushes have to be open to market competition - that is, they cannot be nationalisations in the proper understanding of the term.

I agree. This is my reading of how the single market works. MPs like Chuka don't imo have a problem with this side of the single market. Though they don't make this clear to people.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I agree. This is my reading of how the single market works. MPs like Chuka don't imo have a problem with this side of the single market. Though they don't make this clear to people.

That looks like Game, Set and Match to Butchers to me.

 

[Ptolemy]

Are there any Labour MPs more worthless than Graham Jones? Admittedly I'm not a fan of whataboutery on any issue, but instead of attacking the Tories, he takes a swipe at Corbyn instead.

For bonus points, spot the big obvious mistake that you'd think even the most cretinous of people in his position would realize...

 

[butchersapron]

Are there any Labour MPs more worthless than Graham Jones? Admittedly I'm not a fan of whataboutery on any issue, but instead of attacking the Tories, he takes a swipe at Corbyn instead.

For bonus points, spot the big obvious mistake that you'd think even the most cretinous of people in his position would realize...

But he's had enough of political stupidity'.

 

[Tom A]

Re: Popodopulous, the official response (so they think he's a dodgy fucker even if CR and squirrelp think it's all A-OK.)

Last Saturday I was told by a friend I am involved in campaigns with that back in the late 70s he had his picture taken with a certain person who was then a prominent freedom fighter against colonialism but is now a notorious authoritarian strongman leader of a country. This was spread in some left publications at the time, however it's clear to me that he does not endorse the views and actions of the person he had the picture taken with.

(I am being deliberately vague to protect this friend's anonymity since this obviously could be weaponised by the right if they ever had a need to attack him, although for the record this friend is not a member of the Labour Party)

 

[phillm]

Last Saturday I was told by a friend I am involved in campaigns with that back in the late 70s he had his picture taken with a certain person who was then a prominent freedom fighter against colonialism but is now a notorious authoritarian strongman leader of a country. This was spread in some left publications at the time, however it's clear to me that he does not endorse the views and actions of the person he had the picture taken with.

(I am being deliberately vague to protect this friend's anonymity since this obviously could be weaponised by the right if they ever had a need to attack him, although for the record this friend is not a member of the Labour Party)

I along with others went to see Robert Mugabe along with others in Manchester when they were here for the Lancaster House talks. We cheered him and the ZANU(PF) leadership to the rafters. And I think I saw Jezza along with Gerry Adams et al at a Troops Out Demo in Kilburn which was down some side street absolutely surrounded by plod at around the same time.

 

[Pickman's model]

I along with others went to see Robert Mugabe along with others in Manchester when they were here for the Lancaster House talks. We cheered him and the ZANU(PF) leadership to the rafters. And I think I saw Jezza along with Gerry Adams et al at a Troops Out Demo in Kilburn which was down some side street absolutely surrounded by plod at around the same time.

quex road

 

[phillm]

quex road

I'm sure you're right. Were you there ?

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm sure you're right. Were you there ?

was on a number of those marches, don't think i ever saw ga there but i never stuck round for the speeches. the cry went up "to the pub!"

 

[Andrew Hertford]

How many companies have been nationalised within the EU? Not how many are nationalised, that's a different question. One the EUs sad defenders prefer to ignore.

Article 345 of the Lisbon Treaty: “The Treaties shall in no way prejudice the rules in Member States governing the system of property ownership.”

The 4th-railway-package makes competitive tendering mandatory, but from what I understand it would still be up to governments to award franchises and so a future Corbyn government could still award them to its own nationalised company if it wanted to. Is that not right?

Competitive tendering will apply to all member states whether they currently have privatised systems or not and I’ve found no suggestion that countries like France, Germany, Spain, Italy and Sweden etc are preparing to end their long traditions of state run railways.

Corbyn campaigned to stay in the EU despite the inpending 4th package. He was right to oppose aspects of it, but presumably didn’t see it as a barrier to rail renationalisation.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

Oh come on, this is highly disingenuous. Your claims were that he would wipe out the party due to being *personally unelectable* and that somebody else out there in the party would do a better job of leading them in an election. Well, he only had 2 years post Miliband and had to fight a party that had latched onto UKIP voters, and yet he still outpolled even Blair in his latter election and improved the party's MP count, whilst gaining during the process a personal approval rating higher than any other leader. He had too much ground to make up, but that's nothing to do with his personal electability. In fact, the very cult of personality that got him through the leadership election gave the Labour Party a boost.

So don't try to retcon your argument now to pretend that in some way you were right. You were horribly, woefully wrong.

I’ve already admitted being wrong about the extent of Corbyn’s popularity and also the extent Labour’s defeat, as were most people, but it was still a defeat nonetheless and we are still no further forward, we still have this corrosive tory government, now probably until 2022. So as for being ‘horribly and woefully wrong’, I suggest you aim your fire at those who slagged off anyone who criticised him but then refused to even vote for him, preferring the delusion of ‘continuing to agitate for revolution’ instead.

To win the next election whenever it may come, Corbyn and McDonnel must do far more to retain the massive anti brexit vote they got in June as well as be more honest and coherent about policy costing, taking into account that brexit is going to mean less revenue after 2019.

 

[Pickman's model]

i was just going through an auld memory stick when i found some footage of a 2001 news report about the hunt demo outside the labour party conference.

to my surprise i noticed the slogan behind tony blair - indeed, written in his own hand - bears some resemblance to a current labour party slogan

 

[Lord Camomile]

the massive anti brexit vote they got in June

Was there really a "massive anti-Brexit vote"? If so, why didn't the Lib Dems, who were the only party actually campaigning as such, not do better?

My impression was that a lot of people seemed to think Brexit wasn't anything like the motivating factor behind votes that people thought it would be.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

Was there really a "massive anti-Brexit vote"? If so, why didn't the Lib Dems, who were the only party actually campaigning as such, not do better?

My impression was that a lot of people seemed to think Brexit wasn't anything like the motivating factor behind votes that people thought it would be.

Brexit was a massive issue at the election, despite the brexiters attempt to pretend that the issue is all done and dusted. Labour were seen as the anti-hard brexit party.

The Brexit election? The 2017 General Election in ten charts

Few voted for the Lib Dems for various reasons including the usual one, which is that no one thinks they can ever actually win. A Lib Dem vote is perceived by most of the electorate as a wasted one unless it is purely tactical. Also, at this election, I don’t believe that even the most ardent Lib Demmer saw their leader (I’ve forgotten his name already) as PM material.

 

[bemused]

If so, why didn't the Lib Dems, who were the only party actually campaigning as such, not do better?

Because the LibDems campaign made Theresa May look like a populist titan.

I give you plain speaking, the man of the people, TIm selling his vision:

 

[Raheem]

Was there really a "massive anti-Brexit vote"? If so, why didn't the Lib Dems, who were the only party actually campaigning as such, not do better?

My impression was that a lot of people seemed to think Brexit wasn't anything like the motivating factor behind votes that people thought it would be.

I think your impression is absolutely right, but that's an anti-Brexit vote in its own way. The electorate was supposed to voice its determination to see Brexit through at all costs. The Tories framed it as being all about the need to face down the opposition parties openly plotting to defy the will of the people. But the electorate wasn't arsed, on balance.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

I think your impression is absolutely right, but that's an anti-Brexit vote in its own way. The electorate was supposed to voice its determination to see Brexit through at all costs. The Tories framed it as being all about the need to face down the opposition parties openly plotting to defy the will of the people. But the electorate wasn't arsed, on balance.

Personal impressions are all very well and mine differ from Lord Camomile’s, but did you see the British Election Study survey?

General election 2017: Brexit dominated voters' thoughts - BBC News

The Brexit election? The 2017 General Election in ten charts

Newly released data from the British Election Study (BES) has shown that, in the minds of voters, the 2017 election was the 'Brexit election' - despite its absence on the campaign trail.

This can be seen in the data in many different ways, but nowhere more clearly perhaps than the answer to the question “as far as you’re concerned, what is the SINGLE MOST important issue facing the country at the present time?” which was asked to more than 30,000 BES respondents during the election campaign.

Chart 1 shows the words that were used most frequently in response to this question, the size of the word representing the number of times it was mentioned. While understandably terrorism, immigration, the economy and the NHS all featured heavily, the dominant issue was Brexit. More than one in three people mentioned Brexit or the EU, compared to fewer than one in 10 who mentioned the NHS and one in 20 who suggested the economy.

Labour was seen as the best bet for those wanting to keep closer ties with our European neighbours. Not only did they win over a large number of remainers from the Conservatives, but also from the pro-EU Greens and Lib Dems. Nearly two thirds of 2015 Greens went to Labour as well as around of a quarter of Liberal Democrats. Overall more than half of all remain voters voted for Labour, compared to a quarter for the Conservatives and 15% for Lib Dems. (My bolds).

 

[Fez909]

 

[hash tag]

I am no fan of speculating on a new leader when the current one is quite safe and this is not brilliant.

Emily Thornberry tipped as next Labour leader

 

[DotCommunist]

I am no fan of speculating on a new leader when the current one is quite safe and this is not brilliant.

Emily Thornberry tipped as next Labour leader

only acceptable if she uses 'Thorn in Your Side' as a campaign slogan and the eurythmics tune as her entrance music

 

[killer b]

I am no fan of speculating on a new leader when the current one is quite safe and this is not brilliant.

Emily Thornberry tipped as next Labour leader

why share it then? it's a total nothing of a story.

 

[Bingo]

Fake headline no? They've just sat him there and pestered him with questions, then tried to cobble an article together with whatever they managed to get.

 

[teqniq]

It is indeed really fucking tiresome.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I'm hoping there's a list somewhere of MPs who actually demonstrate a class analysis, and that they are having endless resources thrown at them to put them in the best position to stand when Jez stands down.

The main two who are making their voices heard at the moment are Chris Williamson and Laura Pidcock, but Laura in particular has got to get some years behind her yet, and I can imagine everything and the kitchen sink being thrown at Chris if he decided to stand.

 

[Streathamite]

But the electorate wasn't arsed, on balance.

equally, the electorate's antennae were working well enough to sense that the tories were trying to completely stitch them up; "we need a strong majority to negotiate brexit...so here's our completely catch-all manifesto, now give us the sort of yuuuge parliamentary majority to emable us to do what the fuck we like on brexit and everything and anything else!"
Because that was, really, what their campaign platfrom boiled down to.