Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[Casually Red]

Perhaps "immovable" is not the right word there, at least to describe the Labour vote at the last election. The vote that Corbyn got out voted for mostly rational reasons based on politics that is simple to understand - they had issues (lack of housing, lack of quality jobs, attacks on pay and conditions, student debt etc etc) that where becoming / had become serious issues for them, Corbyn proposed to deal with them and they believed him. Given that no likely alternative Labour figure, and certainly no Lib Dem / Tory, is going to do what Corbyn did you're right to say that they are probably going to stay with him - but they are going to stay with him for reasons that can easily be understood.

The Tory vote however does genuinely look immovable - despite almost nightly evidence that they are dangerously incompetent at best, the vote stays with them and it seems to be staying with them because of the notion they have of what Corbyn is. Without challenging that notion effectively it will be very difficult, if not impossible, to win.

That vote was in the teeth of sustained and unrelenting sabotage from within his own ranks . With many who were standing for election even telling voters they'd no chance of winning because of who their leader was .
That massive treachery definitely cost them a lot of votes , it was bound to . The result has made it much easier for him to stamp his authority internally . The chief fifth columnist charge against him was that he was unelectable . Clearly that's no longer the case . So logically a more united party with a leader many now see as future pm material rather than a radical fringe laughing stock would stand a much better chance in another electoral contest .

Similarly the post election Tory meltdown and series of humiliations , the DUP deal etc has impacted very negatively on the Tory image . They did badly when they looked unassailable and now look even worse post election . They can definitely lose votes in that scenario .

The election result itself has challenged the notions and conventional wisdoms . The ground has shifted politically . Central to that has been the myth of Corbyn and his policies being electorally toxic , out there, weird , fairytale stuff assuring a landslide to his opponents. No longer the case . That will make more people think about just how wise the wisdoms and their purveyors are . Look at stuff differently, believe change is possible . Add to that a much more assured and confident Corbin who's definitely growing into his role the longer he's in it and it may well be possible to turn people around .

 

[Casually Red]

The Tories are screwed because they can only offer up more austerity to people who are sick of it, according to this . You can also definitely see the massive change in tack post election . The " unelectable fringe madman " shtick has been abandoned and replaced with " he's no different than us " .

Attacking Corbyn’s strengths isn’t going to save the Tories

Things can definitely be very different next time round I reckon . As I said earlier the political ground has shifted and with that the political wisdoms that rested on it .

 

[bemused]

Corbyn did do very well, but the Tories are in power and handling brexit. He also came up against an inept wooden leader - something they will remedy, because they won't go to the polls like this.

I think the problem the tories have is they don't have many likable human beings who would be leader.

Labour have the same issue, Corbyn was the only one of their leadership candidates who comes across as normal.

Unless they start moving some more relatable people to the front bench I can't see who could be a leader that would eat into Corbyn's vote.

 

[Raheem]

Unless they start moving some more relatable people to the front bench I can't see who could be a leader that would eat into Corbyn's vote.

Relatable compared to May is not such a big ask, though, and in any case they fucked up in many more ways this time round than just having a pisspoor leader. When it comes to not having such an all-round mare next time, they have a lot of scope (in the unlikely event that the Brexit process doesn't eat them alive).

 

[Casually Red]

Perhaps "immovable" is not the right word there, at least to describe the Labour vote at the last election. The vote that Corbyn got out voted for mostly rational reasons based on politics that is simple to understand - they had issues (lack of housing, lack of quality jobs, attacks on pay and conditions, student debt etc etc) that where becoming / had become serious issues for them, Corbyn proposed to deal with them and they believed him. Given that no likely alternative Labour figure, and certainly no Lib Dem / Tory, is going to do what Corbyn did you're right to say that they are probably going to stay with him - but they are going to stay with him for reasons that can easily be understood.

The Tory vote however does genuinely look immovable - despite almost nightly evidence that they are dangerously incompetent at best, the vote stays with them and it seems to be staying with them because of the notion they have of what Corbyn is. Without challenging that notion effectively it will be very difficult, if not impossible, to win.

This was an interesting statistic being discussed



In tune with what I've said above

 

[butchersapron]

In tune with what you've repeated above yes

 

[Beats & Pieces]

In tune with what you've repeated above yes

This must be you having a Socratic moment - you should be careful - given the apparent limitations applied that would not be recognisable as such.

This is all about claims to equality and the position of the excluded.

 

[butchersapron]

Write that again.

 

[Pickman's model]

Corbyn is going to talk about socialism at a festival which costs hundreds of pounds to attend, strange days indeed.

I wonder if Yvette and Ed will be listening?

Treelover's last post. As so often the case out not with a bang but a whimper

 

[NoXion]

Treelover's last post. As so often the case out not with a bang but a whimper

Why do you do this?

 

[Pickman's model]

Why do you do this?

Do what?

 

[NoXion]

Do what?

You've dug up a month old post for apparently no other purpose than to have a go at someone, especially since the post in question hardly went without valid criticism at the time.

 

[Pickman's model]

You've dug up a month old post for apparently no other purpose than to have a go at someone, especially since the post in question hardly went without valid criticism at the time.

No one at the time pointed put he'd been absent for a month. Seems the valid criticism drove him away.

 

[Beats & Pieces]

Write that again.

I don't need to - you got the point.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't need to - you got the point.

No I didn't. I don't think anyone did. Have a third run at it.

 

[Pickman's model]

No I didn't. I don't think anyone did. Have a third run at it.

A third strike as it were

 

[Andrew Hertford]

I also quoted RMT view. The Morning Star article quoted an academics view.

I didn't like the way the referendum ended up about focusing on immigration. My view was to stay in and reform it. As Varoufakis argued. That didn't happen.

There is a lot of things wrong with EU. Particularly the way Greece has been treated.

The election. May wanted it to be about Brexit.I don't think it ended up that way. It ended up as anti austerity vote. Older people were pissed off with her move on care costs.

The link you used was quite old. The quotes I used were more recent. The rail package has been agreed since the link you posted up was written.

My view is still to stay in and reform the EU.

As I said, the argument that EU membership and by extension the single market forbid state rail ownership is a nonstarter because the leading EU countries already have nationalised railways and have no plans to privatise them.

Why do you think Corbyn campaigned for remain if he thought was going to torpedo Labour’s plans for renationalisation? Why do Varoufakis and Syriza continue to support EU membership?

So far as anti EU arguments go, it’s as poor as any of UKIP’s.

Labour certainly shouldn’t pursue an anti single market policy if they want to hold on to their increased support back in June.

'Soft Brexit' policy won Labour votes in general election, says study

The Brexit election? The 2017 General Election in ten charts

“(The chart) reveals a striking correlation between wanting to control immigration and voting Tory on one hand, and wanting access to the single market and voting Labour or Lib Dem on the other. For example, the Conservatives lead Labour by more than 40 percentage points amongst those most in support of full control of immigration, with Labour having a similar lead among those wanting complete access to the single market.”

 

[Andrew Hertford]

Where did he express support for the (terrorist) actions of the ANC? I don't believe you.

I didn't say he supported 'terrorist' actions, that's the point, the ANC's strategy was far more sophisticated than just killing people, it was predominantly nonviolent and the number of ANC orchestrated deaths was remarkably low for a large population subjected to such a long period of extreme oppression.

By the way, Corbyn was famously arrested while supporting the pro ANC nonstop picket outside the SA embassy.

 

[gosub]

My view is still to stay in and reform the EU.

As I said, the argument that EU membership and by extension the single market forbid state rail ownership is a nonstarter because the leading EU countries already have nationalised railways and have no plans to privatise them.

Why do you think Corbyn campaigned for remain if he thought was going to torpedo Labour’s plans for renationalisation? Why do Varoufakis and Syriza continue to support EU membership?

So far as anti EU arguments go, it’s as poor as any of UKIP’s.

Labour certainly shouldn’t pursue an anti single market policy if they want to hold on to their increased support back in June.

'Soft Brexit' policy won Labour votes in general election, says study

The Brexit election? The 2017 General Election in ten charts

“(The chart) reveals a striking correlation between wanting to control immigration and voting Tory on one hand, and wanting access to the single market and voting Labour or Lib Dem on the other. For example, the Conservatives lead Labour by more than 40 percentage points amongst those most in support of full control of immigration, with Labour having a similar lead among those wanting complete access to the single market.”

So you want the country that has been overruled most at EUropean Council... where the party that won the leading the Commission didn't even bother fielding candidates in the UK..that doesn't have skin in the game on currency, nor freedom of movement... to help shape the direction of the EU. They are as glad to get rid as we should be to leave.

Labour is as all over the place on EU as Tories are, needs a coalition

 

[Gramsci]

My view is still to stay in and reform the EU.

As I said, the argument that EU membership and by extension the single market forbid state rail ownership is a nonstarter because the leading EU countries already have nationalised railways and have no plans to privatise them.

Why do you think Corbyn campaigned for remain if he thought was going to torpedo Labour’s plans for renationalisation? Why do Varoufakis and Syriza continue to support EU membership?

So far as anti EU arguments go, it’s as poor as any of UKIP’s.

Labour certainly shouldn’t pursue an anti single market policy if they want to hold on to their increased support back in June.

'Soft Brexit' policy won Labour votes in general election, says study

The Brexit election? The 2017 General Election in ten charts

“(The chart) reveals a striking correlation between wanting to control immigration and voting Tory on one hand, and wanting access to the single market and voting Labour or Lib Dem on the other. For example, the Conservatives lead Labour by more than 40 percentage points amongst those most in support of full control of immigration, with Labour having a similar lead among those wanting complete access to the single market.”

Ive already shown that EU , with evidence in previous posts, how single market is neo liberal. You just wont see it.

Back to topic. You never supported Corbyn on this thread.

The right of the Labour party are pushing to stay in single market. And they arent, as Ive said before, liberal on immigration. They want single market with immigration controls.

 

[agricola]

The right of the Labour party are pushing to stay in single market. And they arent, as Ive said before, liberal on immigration. They want single market with immigration controls.

They don't - they just want the single market. They only blather on about immigration because they think its what "normal people" want; had they won in 2015, or won the referendum based on Watson's line, I am 99% sure they would have dropped it soon afterwards on the basis that to establish controls would be illegal.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

They don't - they just want the single market. They only blather on about immigration because they think its what "normal people" want; had they won in 2015, or won the referendum based on Watson's line, I am 99% sure they would have dropped it soon afterwards on the basis that to establish controls would be illegal.

Well, neoliberals in general aren't for proper freedom of movement anyway—you're free to move but within strict parameters which disenfranchise you and allow for pressure by employers and the state. They all want immigration controls, it's just a matter of what sort.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

Ive already shown that EU , with evidence in previous posts, how single market is neo liberal. You just wont see it.

You’ve shown opinion, not evidence. The claim was that single market membership ruled out renationalisation and I’ve repeatedly shown you the gaping holes in that argument, none of which you have been able to address. So apparently it’s not me who ‘won’t see it’.

Back to topic. You never supported Corbyn on this thread.

I argued that he wouldn’t win the election, was I wrong? But at least I actually supported Corbyn at the election, unlike as it turns out many of the usual hypocrites on here who were only too happy to throw personal abuse at anyone who dared criticise him, but then refused to even vote for him.

The core of my argument has always been that the election of a Labour government is the only way to save essential public services and that is still the case. As the University of Manchester survey shows, Labour will lose a lot of the support they won in June if they pursue a hard/anti single market brexit.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

So you want the country that has been overruled most at EUropean Council... where the party that won the leading the Commission didn't even bother fielding candidates in the UK..that doesn't have skin in the game on currency, nor freedom of movement... to help shape the direction of the EU. They are as glad to get rid as we should be to leave.

Labour is as all over the place on EU as Tories are, needs a coalition

European union is about far more than which political parties stand in individual states or who has or hasn’t adopted the Euro, it’s a concept which replaces centuries of war and isolationism with peace through shared values and cooperation.

Opting out after just a couple of generations is idiotic. The EU needs a chance to reform and evolve to reflect changing times, not be abandoned completely because of its flaws.

 

[BemusedbyLife]

European union is about far more than which political parties stand in individual states or who has or hasn’t adopted the Euro, it’s a concept which replaces centuries of war and isolationism with peace through shared values and cooperation.

Opting out after just a couple of generations is idiotic. The EU needs a chance to reform and evolve to reflect changing times, not be abandoned completely because of its flaws.

I am totally going to steal this and use it on the Take Back Control wallies at work

 

[kabbes]

I argued that he wouldn’t win the election, was I wrong?

Oh come on, this is highly disingenuous. Your claims were that he would wipe out the party due to being *personally unelectable* and that somebody else out there in the party would do a better job of leading them in an election. Well, he only had 2 years post Miliband and had to fight a party that had latched onto UKIP voters, and yet he still outpolled even Blair in his latter election and improved the party's MP count, whilst gaining during the process a personal approval rating higher than any other leader. He had too much ground to make up, but that's nothing to do with his personal electability. In fact, the very cult of personality that got him through the leadership election gave the Labour Party a boost.

So don't try to retcon your argument now to pretend that in some way you were right. You were horribly, woefully wrong.

 

[belboid]

You’ve shown opinion, not evidence. The claim was that single market membership ruled out renationalisation and I’ve repeatedly shown you the gaping holes in that argument, none of which you have been able to address. So apparently it’s not me who ‘won’t see it’.

How many companies have been nationalised within the EU? Not how many are nationalised, that's a different question. One the EUs sad defenders prefer to ignore.

 

[Raheem]

How many companies have been nationalised within the EU? Not how many are nationalised, that's a different question. One the EUs sad defenders prefer to ignore.

They might be ignoring the question, but are you maybe ignoring the answer?

 

[Teaboy]

How many companies have been nationalised within the EU? Not how many are nationalised, that's a different question. One the EUs sad defenders prefer to ignore.

Well, it looks like France is about to nationalise that port but I don't think that's a very good example.

 

[butchersapron]

And on top of the many interlocking blocks on renationalisation or any other similar moves, the EU requires that any natioanalisations that manage to break through the various legal ambushes have to be open to market competition - that is, they cannot be nationalisations in the proper understanding of the term.