2hats
Dust.
They dropped the ball when Trump’s hands went wandering.
Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
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Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
I'm sorry to inform you belboid but a complete knob appears to have hacked your account.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Funnily enough I was just reading the article below, explains your stupidity quite well
Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds
DownwardDog
Riding a Brompton with a power meter.
A special gulag for kulaks. Abbott will present her plans for them in a green paper after Labour win the 2020 GE.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Who might these 'credible' people be IYO?
Andrew Hertford
Chocolate Jesus
Then I’m sure people where you live are as badly affected by tory cuts to essential services as anywhere else. The tories aren’t going to change, the only thing that can stop them is an electable Labour Party.
Andrew Hertford
Chocolate Jesus
I’m just trying to imagine what my grandad would have said if I’d told him I wasn’t going to bother voting because it was too windy.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
I believe the Tories have been on TV today making the point that the nagging granddad count was also extremely high on polling day, and should have more than compensated for the weather.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
So how do you get an electable Labour Party? One that appeals to both the leavers and the remainers? The likes of blair or mandelson would have failed just as badly, if not worse. Saying labour is crap is worthless unless you can say how they can become 'electable'
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
So why was the turnout so low? Your granddad would likely have disapproved of every reason people had for staying home
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
Exploiting the state of the NHS, railways and public utilities, and the erosion of workers' rights and widely publicising the effect Tory cuts have had on local services, just for starters. Labour are really missing open goals on this and hopefully they are starting to remedy that.
Copeland and Stoke have shown that in terms of party politics, the traditional two-party situation is alive and well (for better or worse). Labour really, badly need to get their act together in terms of the above issues - to have cohesive policies, to start shouting loudly about them and to restore faith in their traditional base.
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
Obviously, Brexit is a hugely important issue too and IMVHO Corbyn did the right thing - to do otherwise would have been disrespectful to the reasons behind the Leave vote (disenfranchisement, alienation from party politics and a perceived elite etc. I was a strong Remain supporter but believe the issues behind a Leave vote cannot be ignored).
The EU is changing and will not be the same in a decade (cf Greece, France, etc.). I don't want to come over all UKIP type ('make the country great again' etc.) but Britain is an innovative country within its context (first to have a revolution against feudalism, first to industrialise, possibly first to de-industrialise) so we will probably be the first to disengage from the EU and others will do the same.
The really important thing is to get the best possible terms from leaving the EU in terms of workers' rights, the rights of those who have come from the EU and those who have gone to the EU.
The EU is changing and will not be the same in a decade (cf Greece, France, etc.). I don't want to come over all UKIP type ('make the country great again' etc.) but Britain is an innovative country within its context (first to have a revolution against feudalism, first to industrialise, possibly first to de-industrialise) so we will probably be the first to disengage from the EU and others will do the same.
The really important thing is to get the best possible terms from leaving the EU in terms of workers' rights, the rights of those who have come from the EU and those who have gone to the EU.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
They did do that and it's the same message they've been banging on about since forever. All the time while Labour councils are cutting local services.
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
Yeah, they are. But because of Tory cuts in grant to local government.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
No because it's what they believe ideologically, austerity didn't begin with the coalition government. The 2015 LP manifesto did not argue for a reverse to the cuts. Last year the NEC unanimously passed a motion banning Labour councils from setting illegal budgets. (Never mind the however many years of attacks on the welfare state previous to 2015).
The excuse that 'it's all the Tories fault' is pathetic bollocks, was it the Tories fault the Labour council in Millwall decided to do some dodgy deal? If they were opposed to cuts then they should put their money where their mouth is and fight them, as opposed to cravenly rolling over.
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
Labour is now opposed to austerity and LG cuts. I completely agree with you about some right-wing Labour attacks on the welfare state (still get annoyed at the Rachel Reeves speech
and do not support her views at all). The illegal budgets is a tricky one which happened in the 80s and did not end well.There isn't a Labour council in Millwall as such but I know a lot of local people, LP members etc. were really not happy with the issue re the land near the New Den and how it was handled by Lewisham Council. My OH is a Millwall supporter through and through and really pissed off re this (and I'm not impressed) but it still wouldn't make us vote Tory or anyone else. (Live in Lewisham in case you didn't realise!)
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
So you claim but what does this opposition actually entail? Because I just see Labour councils cutting local services as they have done for 30+ years.
I guess these weren't actually Labour councils.
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
I can only speak for my local council but they don't want to cut local services. It is something forced upon them. Where I live the have tried to consult but it is a 'choice' between other services, say libraries for example, and services for vulnerable children and elderly people.
Opposition to cuts is Corbyn at PMQs talking about the NHS and knock on effect to 'social care', and at least where I am starting an awareness campaign re the financing (or lack thereof) of local government services.
I didn't like Blair for obvious reasons, but the NHS and LG services were far safer back in the 90s/00s.
Austerity cuts are really starting to bite now (NHS crisis, underfunded state schools, benefit cuts, etc. etc.) and Labour really need to exploit this big time.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Right so actually nothing other than empty rhetoric. How are they being forced? What happens if they resist this force?
'Please sir it's not my fault the big boys made me do it' is not good enough. Labour councils are implementing the cuts that's not opposing them and Labour members have to wear that.
'Please sir it's not my fault the big boys made me do it' is not good enough. Labour councils are implementing the cuts that's not opposing them and Labour members have to wear that.
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Combustible
Well-Known Member
Was Copeland a straight swing between the two parties? There was also a much larger swing away from UKIP presumably mostly to the Tories (I haven't seen what the difference would be if the UKIP vote had held)
It is quite clear that at the moment a Labour council refusing to set a budget with cuts would not get a lot of support and would lead to them losing a lot of councillors/control of the council. Whether you think that justifies implementing cuts or not, I don't see how there would be any other outcome in the present situation.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
So just keep on attacking public services with a sad face then? Vote Labour we'll implement the cuts better!
Setting illegal budgets was simply one example You could take other actions, but you can't claim you're opposing something when you're not actually doing anything to oppose it. By the reasoning above the LibDems also oppose attacks on public services, after all unlike Labour they actually protested about the doings in Lewisham.
Combustible
Well-Known Member
Well a Labour council can either set a legal budget which includes cuts or not do so and the consequences of not doing so would clearly be a massive loss of councillors and support. I didn't say what Labour should or shouldn't do but that is what inevitably would happen.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
This stuff is being enacted right now, by a Labour council:
Haringey, North London – the Front Line Against Gentrification.
Whilst central government cuts are obviously part of the problem, it is simply not good enough for Labour councils/councillors to use this as a constant 'but what can we do?' get-out clause when in many cases they also share the same business interests with private developers. And nor should Labour supporters allow them to get away with it.
Haringey, North London – the Front Line Against Gentrification.
Whilst central government cuts are obviously part of the problem, it is simply not good enough for Labour councils/councillors to use this as a constant 'but what can we do?' get-out clause when in many cases they also share the same business interests with private developers. And nor should Labour supporters allow them to get away with it.
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kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
The Tories have managed to square that circle - they have probably lost a slim slice of their remain voters to the LibDems (temporarily I'd wager), but in big picture terms they have found a formula that allows both leavers and remained to continue to support them.
This is not impossible, can't go against the laws of physics stuff, it's just politics - and Labour politicians, both remainers and closet leavers, Corbyn supporters as well as his detractors, seem to be pretty shit at these relatively basic political skills.
They are fine at speaking to people who agree with them on about 98% stuff, but utterly shit at talking to the rest of the world.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Just to add that I'm involved in some social housing/anti-sell-off action at the moment, largely fighting against Labour councils. I've never witnessed such a bunch of dishonest, market/privatisation apologist and legal players as some of particularly 'progress' and suchlike councillors. Many of them also engaged in getting as many contracts to their mates in the property development or investment/finance sector too as they can, or where you find out that a councillor turns out to be former business partners of said mates.
This is exactly what my once Labour councillor Mum warned me about, even back in the 90s, when she gave it up having had enough of battling her colleagues more than trying to protect/improve local services.
This is exactly what my once Labour councillor Mum warned me about, even back in the 90s, when she gave it up having had enough of battling her colleagues more than trying to protect/improve local services.
Southlondon
The river's there for a reason
The other thing that happens when you set an illegal budget is the Govt takes control of the council and their people set the budget, as a council tennants id rather it was set by my local council via consultation - even a social democratic majority council, than by tories. Anyone on here remember when the tories and liberals ran Lambeth? Terrible time compared to even the progress shower that run it now.
What we need is a socialist govt,and vest hope of fast is to get in the Labour Party, replace Corbyn with a fresh socialist leader and fight rather than whine
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