Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[danny la rouge]

Just to add that I'm involved in some social housing/anti-sell-off action at the moment, largely fighting against Labour councils. I've never witnessed such a bunch of dishonest, market/privatisation apologist and legal players as some of particularly 'progress' and suchlike councillors. Many of them also engaged in getting as many contracts to their mates in the property development or investment/finance sector too as they can, or where you find out that a councillor turns out to be former business partners of said mates.

This is exactly what my once Labour councillor Mum warned me about, even back in the 90s, when she gave it up having had enough of battling her colleagues more than trying to protect/improve local services.

It's being going on since I got involved in politics in the 1980s. One of the reasons I became disillusioned with the Labour Party was the behaviour of the local councillors (some of whom went on to national prominence).

 

[mauvais]

For whatever byelections are worth, this is Copeland's election history:

 

[redsquirrel]

The other thing that happens when you set an illegal budget is the Govt takes control of the council and their people set the budget, as a council tennants id rather it was set by my local council via consultation - even a social democratic majority council, than by tories. Anyone on here remember when the tories and liberals ran Lambeth? Terrible time compared to even the progress shower that run it now.
What we need is a socialist govt,and vest hope of fast is to get in the Labour Party, replace Corbyn with a fresh socialist leader and fight rather than whine

Right so just go along with cuts to services for another 3 1/2 years and then, if Labour get in, the promise land arrives. And if Labour don't get elected in 2020, just implement another round of cuts?

Ans where are these social democratic councils? I don't see any. You're not social democratic when you're attacking the welfare state.

EDIT: Two years ago it was, we just need to elect a left-wing Labour leader, now it's we have to get rid of Corbyn and have a different left-wing Labour leader.

 

[belboid]

Exploiting the state of the NHS, railways and public utilities, and the erosion of workers' rights and widely publicising the effect Tory cuts have had on local services, just for starters. Labour are really missing open goals on this and hopefully they are starting to remedy that.

Copeland and Stoke have shown that in terms of party politics, the traditional two-party situation is alive and well (for better or worse). Labour really, badly need to get their act together in terms of the above issues - to have cohesive policies, to start shouting loudly about them and to restore faith in their traditional base.

As rs pointed out...they did do those things. The NHS was the absolute heart of the campaign, and lambasting Tory cuts and austerity has been a pretty major feature too. You can't blame the defeat on them not doing those things.

 

[belboid]

The Tories have managed to square that circle - they have probably lost a slim slice of their remain voters to the LibDems (temporarily I'd wager), but in big picture terms they have found a formula that allows both leavers and remained to continue to support them.

This is not impossible, can't go against the laws of physics stuff, it's just politics - and Labour politicians, both remainers and closet leavers, Corbyn supporters as well as his detractors, seem to be pretty shit at these relatively basic political skills.

They are fine at speaking to people who agree with them on about 98% stuff, but utterly shit at talking to the rest of the world.

It's fairly easy for the tories tho. A majority of their voters voted leave and they're the party in government and so basically forced to implement Brexit, it'd be wholly anti democratic for them not too. They'll be losing a few votes, like you say, but they're essentially doing what they have to.

 

[Wilf]

Then I’m sure people where you live are as badly affected by tory cuts to essential services as anywhere else. The tories aren’t going to change, the only thing that can stop them is an electable Labour Party.

What would you say to those bits of the Labour Party that have been elected - Labour councils - but are still making cuts to essential services?

Edit: ah, already said over the last few posts

 

[Pickman's model]

Then I’m sure people where you live are as badly affected by tory cuts to essential services as anywhere else. The tories aren’t going to change, the only thing that can stop them is an electable Labour Party.

yeh. but when the electable labour party are tory lite then tbh it makes no odds who's in power. pretty much the first thing i was told when i started my library qualification was that we would always be working in declining budgets. and that was under a labour administration. don't fart on and on about how the only way to stop cuts - which is in effect what you're saying - is to vote labour. it isn't. labour councils have long been the most enthusiastic enforcers of tory policies, e.g. the poll tax, and the last seven years of austerity. the days of poplarism are long behind us.

 

[Wilf]

FWIW, there's no easy answer in terms of being an elected council and trying to stall or overturn the cuts. There's always the chance of personal consequences and there's the threat of even bigger cuts following on your refusal to make the initial cuts. But it's the mindset of 'we're elected, we've got a roll to play, we might not like it' that's the problem (and as others have said a lot of Labour councils have a far worse, privatising, mentality than that). A starting point has got to be 'we're nothing special, our personal position doesn't matter. This is all about trying to engage with our town and develop strategies to resist shit that destroys lives'. I'm not in the Labour Party, I'm not into electoral politics, but I'd forgive them a lot if their starting point was the need to develop some basic social solidarity with the people that put them their.

 

[Pickman's model]

FWIW, there's no easy answer in terms of being an elected council and trying to stall or overturn the cuts. There's always the chance of personal consequences and there's the threat of even bigger cuts following on your refusal to make the initial cuts. But it's the mindset of 'we're elected, we've got a roll to play, we might not like it' that's the problem (and as others have said a lot of Labour councils have a far worse, privatising, mentality than that). A starting point has got to be 'we're nothing special, our personal position doesn't matter. This is all about trying to engage with our town and develop strategies to resist shit that destroys lives'. I'm not in the Labour Party, I'm not into electoral politics, but I'd forgive them a lot if their starting point was the need to develop some basic social solidarity with the people that put them their.

it's not necessarily 'we have to do this but do not have to like doing this' as much as 'we are happy to do this'.

 

[treelover]

Basingstoke & Deane BC, Winklebury – 21st February 2017
Labour 824 [61.6%, +31.2%]
Con 472 [35.3%, -10.5%]
LD 42 [3.1%, -2.7%]
[UKIP 0 [0.0%, -17.9%]]
Turnout 28.6%

Labour gain from Conservative

UKIP didn't stand, makes you wonder..

 

[Pickman's model]

Basingstoke & Deane BC, Winklebury – 21st February 2017
Labour 824 [61.6%, +31.2%]
Con 472 [35.3%, -10.5%]
LD 42 [3.1%, -2.7%]
[UKIP 0 [0.0%, -17.9%]]
Turnout 28.6%

Labour gain from Conservative

UKIP didn't stand, makes you wonder..

makes you wonder what?

 

[The39thStep]

FWIW, there's no easy answer in terms of being an elected council and trying to stall or overturn the cuts. There's always the chance of personal consequences and there's the threat of even bigger cuts following on your refusal to make the initial cuts. But it's the mindset of 'we're elected, we've got a roll to play, we might not like it' that's the problem (and as others have said a lot of Labour councils have a far worse, privatising, mentality than that). A starting point has got to be 'we're nothing special, our personal position doesn't matter. This is all about trying to engage with our town and develop strategies to resist shit that destroys lives'. I'm not in the Labour Party, I'm not into electoral politics, but I'd forgive them a lot if their starting point was the need to develop some basic social solidarity with the people that put them their.

Absolutely. There are very few examples where Labour in control of councils challenged the naked self interest of local government which is based on we are the specialists the local population is the subject and our proclaimed right is to do things to you not with you. Top down reconstruction of services with no reexamination of the relationship between the council and those that elected it . Clients, residents, users but never citizens. Everything was about efficiency and savings and nothing about how can we at least try and help communities become resilient.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

So how do you get an electable Labour Party? One that appeals to both the leavers and the remainers? The likes of blair or mandelson would have failed just as badly, if not worse. Saying labour is crap is worthless unless you can say how they can become 'electable'

The only way Labour can become electable again is firstly to elect a credible leader and then to actually face up to what voters want, even if that does mean committing to things like ‘controlled’ immigration and replacing Trident. It would be worth it to save essential services such as the NHS which is getting fucked beyond repair right now.

As has been said, for all their obvious faults, essential services are far safer with a Labour government. That was even true of Blair and Brown’s government.

There is no alternative, it’s still only Labour who can rid us of tory governments. That has to be the priority.

 

[instape]

The only way Labour can become electable again is firstly to elect a credible leader and then to actually face up to what voters want, even if that does mean committing to things like ‘controlled’ immigration and replacing Trident. It would be worth it to save essential services such as the NHS which is getting fucked beyond repair right now.

As has been said, for all their obvious faults, essential services are far safer with a Labour government. That was even true of Blair and Brown’s government.

There is no alternative, it’s still only Labour who can rid us of tory governments. That has to be the priority.

Labour gave me and millions of others a justified feeling of terror when a Brown Envelope is sat on the door mat. (Not the clap clinic results)

 

[J Ed]

The only way Labour can become electable again is firstly to elect a credible leader and then to actually face up to what voters want, even if that does mean committing to things like ‘controlled’ immigration and replacing Trident. It would be worth it to save essential services such as the NHS which is getting fucked beyond repair right now.

As has been said, for all their obvious faults, essential services are far safer with a Labour government. That was even true of Blair and Brown’s government.

There is no alternative, it’s still only Labour who can rid us of tory governments. That has to be the priority.

Labour is already committed to 'controlled' immigration and the replacement of Trident.

 

[Mr Moose]

Getting a left wing Labour Party elected is a very hard call. Never impossible as the Tories are such treacherous bastards that there will always be plenty of ammunition and plenty of voters who despise them.

However many voters both want the system changed and for it to be run effectively. A positive and coherent campaign based around solidarity, looking after each other and the environment would have plenty of takers, but only if it also convinces that the state will be robustly run. It's a contradiction and squaring it is largely embodied in voters minds through the personality and qualities of the leader.

I think Labour needs to boil its offer down to some principles and actions easily expressed and repeated. 'We look after each other - how we will do that' a bit like Trump and his wall. Labour needs to offer this as a positive vision and not rely solely on saying everything is shit now.

 

[Dom Traynor]

Until today, I had forgotten how angry Corbyn makes a certain brand of middle-class liberal so if nothing else at least his staying leader is good for that.

He makes a lot of working class people angry as well hence the utter shitness of his leadership

 

[killer b]

I think they're mainly uninterested rather than angry.

 

[brogdale]

I think they're mainly uninterested rather than angry.

Struggling to see what aspects of Corbyn's leadership would anger the working class.

 

[emanymton]

Struggling to see what aspects of Corbyn's leadership would anger the working class.

I'm pretty pissed of he hasn't lynched any tories yet.

 

[brogdale]

I'm pretty pissed of he hasn't lynched any tories yet.

tbf that's our role.

 

[Old Spark]

Struggling to see what aspects of Corbyn's leadership would anger the working class.

Only really his perceived lack of patriotism-cos he bumbles around they arent interested in finding out what his policies are and how these could help them.Diane winds them up far more as does Thornberry but then that is a racist and misogynist thing .

 

[seventh bullet]

lol.

 

[Old Spark]

Anyway IDS the Tory equivalent to JC lead for 26 months so resigning after Conference votes down the McDonnell for Leader rule amendment would be similar.

But who is Labours Michael Howard ?

 

[Smangus]

.Diane winds them up far more as does Thornberry but then that is a racist and misogynist thing .

Might be more to do with coming across as a pompous, condescending arse.

 

[Old Spark]

Might be more to do with coming across as a pompous, condescending arse.

Yeah but the brits invented racism right.?

 

[Smangus]

Yeah but the brits invented racism right.?

lol prob not, it's as old as society.

 

[Smangus]

What have the Romans ever done for us?

 

[Wilf]

The only way Labour can become electable again is firstly to elect a credible leader and then to actually face up to what voters want, even if that does mean committing to things like ‘controlled’ immigration and replacing Trident. It would be worth it to save essential services such as the NHS which is getting fucked beyond repair right now.

As has been said, for all their obvious faults, essential services are far safer with a Labour government. That was even true of Blair and Brown’s government.

There is no alternative, it’s still only Labour who can rid us of tory governments. That has to be the priority.

I'm pretty certain I come from a very different political position to you, but I agree with part of this. Yes, there are no signs that Corbyn's brand of leftish social democracy is going to win any time soon - to say the least. Partly because of the permanent war launched by the right of the party, partly because even such a soft left position can't just be plonked in front of the electorate. It has to be built, there has to be communication, there has to be trust. None of this has happened - partly because of the right certainly, but partly because momentum/Corbyn/the new membership haven't created it.

But you seem to be forgetting that Brown lost in 2010 and Miliband in 2015. That brand of capital friendly politics with a veneer of 'social inclusion' has gone. Blairism was a successful politics for a period of economic growth that appealed to the middle classes and assumed the working class had nowhere else to go. Every bit as much as Austerity it has alienated working class voters and can't be put back together again. Blairism isn't there to be had - thankfully, given the damage it actually did to working class voters. Tragedy is nothing else is happening or emerging in terms of any other sort of left alternative - but the absence of a left alternative doesn't revive Blairism as a plausible position.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What a carcrash. When will this arrogant little fuckwit just fuck off and let someone credible attempt to stop these fucking Tories destroying this country.

Had it. Just go.

The first nine words of the second sentence read like projection.