Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[billy_bob]

Momentum is as irrelevant now as most fractured Left wing groups, participation in whatever it is they're doing is way down and from some of the votes I've heard about they may as well just grab a table in a pub and argue it out for all the rest of the world cares. On the plus side though I think most of the more canny people who wanted it to be a grassroots organising thing are already walking away from it and just doing that, under the banner of Labour where they can. My experience at least.

I'm still a member myself, technically, if only because I haven't remembered to leave but as far as I could judge it's main use was/is as a way of mobilising support during leadership campaigns. It's not much cop for anything else. On the local level I'm aware of most organisation is happening informally through people just knowing who's sound and who isn't and reaching out from there, small, open meetings and the like. A good thing I reckon, never seems to lead to any cultish splits at least and even if the outcomes haven't been uniformly great there's definitely solid connections forming that way.

Indeed, Momentum runs the risk of becoming (if it's not already) not just irrelevant but a major barrier to effectively organising at the grassroots around specific issues. Labour's a tainted and doomed 'brand'. Case in point, on the NHS, different factions of Momentum appear to be organising a variety of protests etc in the coming months, some coordinated with each other and others not, and all of them at risk of putting off increasing numbers of people because of the Labour banner.

I don't think not having a banner (ie solidarity) is the answer, but it's increasingly obvious Labour's not providing the right one.

e2a: like Wilf (most of whose posts I've agreed with since this thread began) I'm not in, and I realise it's easy to diagnose problems and carp from the sidelines. I don't envy those who are inside trying to make any of this work. I do think it's time they accepted it's not going to.

 

[Supine]

Well, he wanted brexit, but ended up campaigning (sort of) for remain.

He should read leadership for dummies

 

[kebabking]

Well, he wanted brexit, but ended up campaigning (sort of) for remain. But after the vote what else could he say/do?

i'm of the same view - if he wants to fish in a pond larger than the number of remainers who don't accept the finality/legitimacy of the referendum result, then he has no choice. of course May is in a similar position, and having grasped the nettle she appears to be just about managing the political tightrope with that 17% lead in the polls...

 

[treelover]

Presumably though the pre conference meeting was around September, at the height of the leadership campaign? As has been discussed over the last couple of pages, there were 2 broad options: working with the momentum of the leadership campaign and putting a strategy in place to change the party in terms of both policy and decision making - or to look outwards, work at the grass roots and , indirectly, change the party that way (though that wouldn't be the primary aim). I'm not involved, easy for me to say and all that... but I just don't see a strategy for doing either of those things.

last week,

 

[Wilf]

last week,

Ah, right, 'pre-conf' as in Spring Conference?

 

[Pickman's model]

Baron Corbyn has just said he'll impose a 3 line whip to make his MPs vote to trigger Article 50 (guardian). Seems like a slight hostage to fortune as the deal on offer at that point might not be too grand, though it was probably his only option. Otherwise he gets painted as opposing the will of the people. Same time its probably going to be the next battle he has with the Labour right.

tbf if he goes yup, let's vote for a.50 then a load of people have a pop at him.
if he goes i'll leave it up to individual mps' consciences, a load of people have a go at him
if he says we're all vehemently opposed to this, let's remember jo cox: then a load of people have a go at him

whatever he does - and there are options on which i have not touched - a load of people have a go at him.

 

[Reiabuzz]

He should read leadership for dummies

He should just fuck off back to the back benches and let someone who can actually lead a party and get the fucking tories out.

Such a fucking lying dick.

 

[kebabking]

tbf if he goes yup, let's vote for a.50 then a load of people have a pop at him.
if he goes i'll leave it up to individual mps' consciences, a load of people have a go at him
if he says we're all vehemently opposed to this, let's remember jo cox: then a load of people have a go at him

whatever he does - and there are options on which i have not touched - a load of people have a go at him.

thats politics - what matters is who has a go at him.

this way the only people who are really unhappy with him are on the fanatical end of the remain party - everyone else either wants him to allow/whatever A50 to go through, or grudgingly accepts thats the expression of the will of the people - and the people who are at the fanatical end of the remain party are already supporting the LibDems in their decent into lunacy, so the only people he really offends by this are people who've already decided that they'll be supporting another party.

so no loss or potential loss.

leaving it to each MP to decide would look like nothing other than cowardice, so he'd just offend everyone for no result.

by helping the govt to get it through he does at least open the door to a repprochment between Labour and its brexit voters. it may well depend on other things, but he does at least open that door a bit.

 

[Pickman's model]

He should just fuck off back to the back benches and let someone who can actually lead a party and get the fucking tories out.

Such a fucking lying dick.

someone like you perhaps

 

[Reiabuzz]

thats politics - what matters is who has a go at him.

this way the only people who are really unhappy with him are on the fanatical end of the remain party - everyone else either wants him to allow/whatever A50 to go through, or grudgingly accepts thats the expression of the will of the people - and the people who are at the fanatical end of the remain party are already supporting the LibDems in their decent into lunacy, so the only people he really offends by this are people who've already decided that they'll be supporting another party.

so no loss or potential loss.

leaving it to each MP to decide would look like nothing other than cowardice, so he'd just offend everyone for no result.

by helping the govt to get it through he does at least open the door to a repprochment between Labour and its brexit voters. it may well depend on other things, but he does at least open that door a bit.

He's nuts. He's up there with Trump in terms of delusion. As long as he clings on May will continue fucking over the country's public services with absolutely no opposition, she can do what she wants. He clearly does not give a flying fuck about anything other than his own ego. Just. go. away. Jeremy. You. Cunt.

 

[Pickman's model]

He's nuts. He's up there with Trump in terms of delusion. As long as he clings on May will continue fucking over the country's public services with absolutely no opposition, she can do what she wants. He clearly does not give a flying fuck about anything other than his own ego. Just. go. away. Jeremy. You. Cunt.

if you hadn't noticed there is a majority tory government in this country. tbh you could have much loved funnyman bernard cribbins as labour leader and there'd be nothing he could do about it.

 

[killer b]

He's nuts. He's up there with Trump in terms of delusion. As long as he clings on May will continue fucking over the country's public services with absolutely no opposition, she can do what she wants. He clearly does not give a flying fuck about anything other than his own ego. Just. go. away. Jeremy. You. Cunt.

Isn't Trump being inaugurated as President of the USA tomorrow? I don't think he's the one with delusions.

 

[agricola]

YouGov | Voting Intention: Conservatives 42%, Labour 25%

Jan 19ths' results...

Owen Smith, Blairites etc...

Bad figures, though of course it should be pointed out who actually set up and still owns a lot of Yougov.

 

[kebabking]

Bad figures, though of course it should be pointed out who actually set up and still owns a lot of Yougov.

that way lies madness - if you disbelieve Yougov because of who owns it, or who worked there, or who once walked passed its doors you'll end up doing the same to all the other polling firms, and eventually you'll start questioning the results of 2015GE.

its conspiraloon territory. don't go there...

 

[Wilf]

tbf if he goes yup, let's vote for a.50 then a load of people have a pop at him.
if he goes i'll leave it up to individual mps' consciences, a load of people have a go at him
if he says we're all vehemently opposed to this, let's remember jo cox: then a load of people have a go at him

whatever he does - and there are options on which i have not touched - a load of people have a go at him.

Yeah, certainly. In terms of the check list to be a leader, in the dirty game of politics, he only manages a few of them. However, he is amazingly resilient and there's nobody else who could either be elected leader or do a better job in the circumstances. As you say, lots of things are being unfairly projected onto him - essentially an ungovernable party made up social democratic members and randomly right wing MPs and officials - an unsolveable mix that has probably passed on from being toxic to just pointless. And Brexit, whilst it should have fucked the Tories, has just been another forum for a dysfunctional labour party to display its disfunctionality.

So yes, getting blamed unfairly for not being able to solve the problems of governing the ungovernable. Same time, he and his lieutenants don't seem to have had much idea what carrying out a left of centre revival in a political party would involve. On one side of the equation, even if it was never going to be easy to drive the Blairites into the sea, there should have been some strategy for getting effective control of the party. And just as much there should have been some serious attention/action directed at Labour's failure to engage working class voters.

 

[Artaxerxes]

He's nuts. He's up there with Trump in terms of delusion. As long as he clings on May will continue fucking over the country's public services with absolutely no opposition, she can do what she wants. He clearly does not give a flying fuck about anything other than his own ego. Just. go. away. Jeremy. You. Cunt.

Rumours suggest he is holding on until Conference and getting the Mcdonnell amendment passed to ensure an actually competent Left leader is on the ballot should he step down.

 

[Wilf]

Isn't Trump being inaugurated as President of the USA tomorrow?

Imagine somebody who has been in a coma for 10 years waking up to that. 'Donald Trump, President? Ha, ha, nice one! What? What? you're serious? Reeeally? AHHHHHHH! PUT ME BACK UNDER AHHHHHHHHHHHH!'

 

[Beermoth]

Baron Corbyn has just said he'll impose a 3 line whip to make his MPs vote to trigger Article 50 (guardian).

Ah right. They'll vote against it then.

 

[kebabking]

Ah right. They'll vote against it then.

i doubt it, some will - and from all over the spectrum of the party - if they are from particularly remainy constituancies and have the LibDems roaring up behind them, but very few will want to be seen to seek to get in the way of A50.

you may not have noticed, but the rebellions have stopped - the PLP see that the quickest way to get rid of Corbyn is to let him get on with it. they take the view, correctly imo, that when his friends stop circling the wagons because the PLP are no longer on the warpath they'll notice just how dire he is and either walk away or get rid of him themselves.

 

[Wilf]

i doubt it, some will - and from all over the spectrum of the party - if they are from particularly remainy constituancies and have the LibDems roaring up behind them, but very few will want to be seen to seek to get in the way of A50.

you may not have noticed, but the rebellions have stopped - the PLP see that the quickest way to get rid of Corbyn is to let him get on with it. they take the view, correctly imo, that when his friends stop circling the wagons because the PLP are no longer on the warpath they'll notice just how dire he is and either walk away or get rid of him themselves.

That looks like a good prediction for the next few months. It's certainly a good call that the next challenge to him will come from the centre left of the party. Maybe a couple more by elections as well as more MPs head off to the consultancies, quangos and chairs of this that and the other, but most of all the whole thing running out of steam (on both sides). Once Article 50 gets signed there might be opportunities for labour to relaunch and reconnect with voters and their anxieties, but in the absence of a complete economic meltdown it's more likely to be a gung ho tory Party.

 

[emanymton]

i'm of the same view - if he wants to fish in a pond larger than the number of remainers who don't accept the finality/legitimacy of the referendum result, then he has no choice. of course May is in a similar position, and having grasped the nettle she appears to be just about managing the political tightrope with that 17% lead in the polls...

I think the biggest problem Labour have is the Brexit vote. I think it would be a problem no matter who was leader, but the split within the PLP make it harder for Corbyn. There is no good strategy available to him. So he went for the worst possible option of having no apparent strategy at all. Maybe this means he is trying to address that.

 

[J Ed]

When I saw Milne's name trending I was hoping that Labour had sacked him, instead I see that he is being made permanent.

 

[belboid]

Baron Corbyn has just said he'll impose a 3 line whip to make his MPs vote to trigger Article 50 (guardian).

Except, if you read the article, he didn't actually say that.

“It means that Labour MPs will be asked to vote in that direction next week, or whenever the vote comes up.”

 

[treelover]

When I saw Milne's name trending I was hoping that Labour had sacked him, instead I see that he is being made permanent.

Yes, disastero..

 

[gosub]

Except, if you read the article, he didn't actually say that.

“It means that Labour MPs will be asked to vote in that direction next week, or whenever the vote comes up.”

A Sargent Wilson three line whip.

 

[Vintage Paw]

When I saw Milne's name trending I was hoping that Labour had sacked him, instead I see that he is being made permanent.

Someone around here is passing the rumour around that Milne is being parachuted into Stoke for Hunt's seat. This person is a big shit-stirrer who doesn't like being left out of all the insider stuff, so makes things up. Amusing though.

 

[Dom Traynor]

Baron Corbyn has just said he'll impose a 3 line whip to make his MPs vote to trigger Article 50 (guardian). Seems like a slight hostage to fortune as the deal on offer at that point might not be too grand, though it was probably his only option. Otherwise he gets painted as opposing the will of the people. Same time its probably going to be the next battle he has with the Labour right.

Read that as Sasha Baron Cohen which recalled to mind the Ali G Tony Benn interview

 

[Wilf]

Except, if you read the article, he didn't actually say that.

“It means that Labour MPs will be asked to vote in that direction next week, or whenever the vote comes up.”

That's exactly the implication and is certainly how the grauniad are reading it:
Corbyn to order Labour MPs to vote for article 50 trigger
Admittedly, a mini rebellion may lead to him changing his mind.

 

[belboid]

That's how the guardian are reporting it. Almost as if they had an agenda.

 

[Supine]

That's how the guardian are reporting it. Almost as if they had an agenda.

tbf, it's also the way I read it.

A stronger leader would clearly say they will or will not be under a whip. His style is wishy washy though.