Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[killer b]

Part of the technique of running a smear campaign is getting people to say stuff like this by provoking them through sheer nastiness, as Finkelstein implies in that quote re Ken's nonsense I linked above.

Giving ammunition like this to your enemies as a free gift while riding a personal hobby-horse, no matter how worthy, is sheer self-indulgence.

Exactly this. It's just fucking stupid.

 

[likesfish]

the problem with the "African holocaust" is its not simply evil white men turning up capturing black people and shipping them off.
African participation in the slave trade

Slave traders in Gorée, Senegal, 18th century
Africans played a direct role in the slave trade, selling their captives or prisoners of war to European buyers. The prisoners and captives who were sold were usually from neighbouring or enemy ethnic groups .These captive slaves were considered "other", not part of the people of the ethnic group or "tribe" ; African kings held no particular loyalty to them. Sometimes criminals would be sold so that they could no longer commit crimes in that area. Most other slaves were obtained from kidnappings, or through raids that occurred at gunpoint through joint ventures with the Europeans.

from wikkipedia thats no excuse for the slave buyers having anything to do with slavery but it was fellow Africans who sold Africans to the Europeans

with out African slavers their wouldn't be a slave trade.
as disease and resistance would make it almost impossible.
The whole horror of africa needs its own day to remember and shouldnt really be tacked on to the remeberance of an attempt by the nazis to wipe out the Jews.
She's clever just lacks wisdom biting your tongue is a powerful tool especially when people will use what you say against you especially when you hand out free ammo.

 

[killer b]

oh god.

 

[DotCommunist]

no discussion involving the slave trade is complete without somebody wheeling that out

 

[J Ed]

The Irish were the only true slaves in America

 

[bemused]

Why is anyone still bothering to defend Walker? Whether she is anti-Semitic or not (and I don't think she is), she is definitely fucking stupid. Only a brain dead moron would go on national TV and repeat statements that were not true. And yet, she did just that. She is an imbecile, and should not be in any kind of charge of a chair, let alone a political movement.

Sometimes I watch these debates about historical tragedies and wonder if there is some game of victim-hood Top Trumps I'm missing? It is almost like people wants to stack rank historical events to gain some sort of points.

 

[J Ed]

Also the Moors kidnapped Cornish people, remember that

 

[chilango]

there's only one of us 'outraged' here. It isn't me.

I agree anti-semitism isn't a problem unique to Labour, but there are a couple of strands of anti-semitic thought which have found their way into parts of the far left (and now with the rise of Corbyn, Labour) - mostly through conspiracy and pro-palestine stuff - which are pretty much unique to the far left, and are real. That there are racists in the ranks of the tories and ukip is irrelevant - we're supposed to hold our allies to higher standards than our enemies aren't we?

I'm not sure I consider these people my allies tbh.

 

[killer b]

I'm not sure I consider these people my allies tbh.

Perhaps not. Nino clearly does though.

 

[chilango]

Perhaps not. Nino clearly does though.

...and equally I doubt they're particularly interested in the likes of me either.

 

[Raheem]

Also the Moors kidnapped Cornish people, remember that

But this was only ever possible with substantial collusion from the pasty industry. I'm only mentioning this because I've heard it's true.

 

[killer b]

I'm not sure I consider these people my allies tbh.

that said, I think even if you don't consider them your allies they still present a problem: How do you talk to people about radical politics when to many people, these people are who they think of when they think about radical politics (if at all)?

 

[Mr Moose]

Sometimes I watch these debates about historical tragedies and wonder if there is some game of victim-hood Top Trumps I'm missing? It is almost like people wants to stack rank historical events to gain some sort of points.

Here's the alternate view on playing off one against another.

 

[chilango]

that said, I think even if you don't consider them your allies they still present a problem: How do you talk to people about radical politics when to many people, these people are who they think of when they think about radical politics (if at all)?

Yeah. True.

 

[Idris2002]

The Irish were the only true slaves in America

This is why you shouldn't let Irish people into your country.

I'm here all week, try the potatoes.

But seriously folks. I can remember a time when there was an analysis of the Atlantic Slave trade as an event in the history of capitalism, as a capitalist event. That kind of analysis seems to be utterly absent in Walker's remarks. And in the absence of that kind of analysis, you get a situation where bad analysis drives out good, and it won't be long before you find entire ethnic or ethnoreligious groups being held responsible for events like, e.g. the Atlantic slave trade.

 

[J Ed]

This is why you shouldn't let Irish people into your country.

I'm here all week, try the potatoes.

But seriously folks. I can remember a time when there was an analysis of the Atlantic Slave trade as an event in the history of capitalism, as a capitalist event. That kind of analysis seems to be utterly absent in Walker's remarks. And in the absence of that kind of analysis, you get a situation where bad analysis drives out good, and it won't be long before you find entire ethnic or ethnoreligious groups being held responsible for events like, e.g. the Atlantic slave trade.

Well we have got to a position where significant numbers of Corbynites seem to have decided that the hill they want to die on is that of Jackie Walker saying things that are both inaccurate and offensive.

I think it would be difficult to describe just how stupid that is politically.

 

[Red Cat]

I suppose part of the problem is that ideas appear to be seen as owned by individuals, they, the person, or people, or party, then represent the idea, or prejudice, rather than seeing ideas, or prejudice, as being created by people together in action.

 

[brogdale]

Well we have got to a position where significant numbers of Corbynites seem to have decided that the hill they want to die on is that of Jackie Walker saying things that are both inaccurate and offensive.

I think it would be difficult to describe just how stupid that is politically.

You may well be right, but given the extent to which the vermin and neolib Labour have weaponised anti-semitism for party/factional purposes it should come as no surprise when elements of the labour left react in knee-jerk defence.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

You may well be right, but given the extent to which the vermin and neolib Labour have weaponised anti-semitism for party/factional purposes it should come as no surprise when elements of the labour left react in knee-jerk defence.

Nor if some who weren't anti-semites before, become such as a result of being attacked in this way ...

 

[brogdale]

Nor if some who weren't anti-semites before, become such as a result of being attacked in this way ...

Hmm...

 

[J Ed]

Nor if some who weren't anti-semites before, become such as a result of being attacked in this way ...

That might be true but if that was all it took then perhaps they were close to being anti-Semites in the first place.

 

[inva]

You may well be right, but given the extent to which the vermin and neolib Labour have weaponised anti-semitism for party/factional purposes it should come as no surprise when elements of the labour left react in knee-jerk defence.

and given the extent to which conspiracy theory pervades a section of Corbyn supporters

 

[J Ed]

I think that you can scarcely say that what is happening is that anti-Corbyn people are laying traps and Corbynites are falling into them. What seems to be happening is that people in the Corbyn camp are responsible for these scenarios in which lay traps of their own making which they enthusiastically throw themselves into and are then followed by thousands of others.

 

[brogdale]

and given the extent to which conspiracy theory pervades a section of Corbyn supporters

Is that so?

 

[inva]

Is that so?

yeah

 

[brogdale]

I think that you can scarcely say that what is happening is that anti-Corbyn people are laying traps and Corbynites are falling into them. What seems to be happening is that people in the Corbyn camp are responsible for these scenarios in which lay traps of their own making which they enthusiastically throw themselves into and are then followed by thousands of others.

Again a great deal of truth in that, but it has become increasingly obvious that back in 2015 the tories decided that this was a very effective way of getting at Corbyn/the Labour left and isolating/discrediting them from sections of their core and fellow travellers. It has worked.

 

[brogdale]

yeah

Go on, I'm really not aware of this...

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

yeah

I think brogdale may have been asking for examples.

 

[J Ed]

Go on, I'm really not aware of this...

It's pretty clear that The Canary, which I'm sure you are familiar with, is read very widely in Corbynite circles and it is run by a (former?) follower of David Icke and member of the Zeitgeist movement who subscribes to 9/11 conspiracy theories and continues to peddle crank theories.

 

[brogdale]

It's pretty clear that The Canary, which I'm sure you are familiar with, is read very widely in Corbynite circles and it is run by a (former?) follower of David Icke and member of the Zeitgeist movement who subscribes to 9/11 conspiracy theories and continues to peddle crank theories.

Oh right.
Actually I'm not really familiar with that site tbh.