Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[J Ed]

is it a new phenomenon or just something I've only recently picked up on, to hound out people who are themselves from an ethnic minority background from the top of left wing organisations for making supposedly racist / anti-semetic comments?

thinking here of the recent attempts to hound out the newly elected NUS head as well.

Something would seem to be going wrong with the whole safe spaces type line of protecting those from ethnic minority backgrounds when it ends up with those it's supposed to be protecting being the ones being hounded out from high level positions in the organisation.

Maybe it's just a coincidence that 2 of the most high profile people who've had this happen to them recently have both been from ethnic minority backgrounds and attempting to discuss basically the same issue.

People aren't going after Walker because she is black or because her father is Jewish, they are going after her because what she said was anti-Semitic and instead of responding to objections to her comments by shutting up she has repeated the comments over and over.

 

[free spirit]

People aren't going after Walker because she is black or because her father is Jewish, they are going after her because what she said was anti-Semitic and instead of responding to objections to her comments by shutting up she has repeated the comments over and over.

but is there not something a bit wrong about a whole host of lefty white non jewish people attacking a person of mixed african / Jewish descent for being anti-semitic when what she was attempting to do was make a nuanced point from the perspective of someone from a mixed african Jewish background?

I suspect she was assuming that her background might give her some level of protection from such daft accusations and allow her to open up a wider discussion on African holocausts that have largely been swept under the carpet and forgotten about in the West, and was just a bit flabberghasted to find that she was met with these sorts of accusations instead.

Maybe she was cack handed in how she put it, but anti-semitism accusations look a bit fucking stupid from where I'm sitting. It's like the racism equivalent of 'Mansplaining' - "no you're wrong to want to discuss that issue, and certainly can't be discussing it in those terms because we've decided what is an isn't permitted to be discussed and in what terms and we clearly know best because we're right on lefties and some of us have been to seminars on the subject and everything, so your viewpoint is invalid and you should shut up and let those who know better how to frame the discussion discuss it for you."

Doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Diamond]

Worthwhile interview with Chakrabarti here - really disappointing performance from her.

I wasn't aware of precisely how dodgy the circumstances of her report was.

She actually joined the party to prepare an independent report.

And then she is ennobled by the party who commissioned her independent report.

And now it looks like she is being brought in as shadow AG - this being the person who prepared an independent report into anti-Semitism in the Labour party.

 

[J Ed]

but is there not something a bit wrong about a whole host of lefty white non jewish people attacking a person of mixed african / Jewish descent for being anti-semitic

No. Not if what they are saying is right, and who said that everyone who is criticising her is white and non-Jewish anyway? A lot of Jewish members of the Labour Party are upset and rightly so and of those who aren't Jewish I doubt that all of them are blonde blue eyed types. I also just don't see the relevance of the ethnicity of any of the participants, bringing that up just seems to me to be an attempt to obfuscate any kind of discussion about what Walker has said.

when what she was attempting to do was make a nuanced point from the perspective of someone from a mixed african Jewish background?

It wasn't a nuanced perspective, she used an anti-Semitic trope used by cranks which doesn't have much if any historical truth to it anyway. Jews only made up a tiny minority of people who were responsible for the slave trade and they certainly were not its 'chief financiers' as Walker claimed, Walker also claimed that British Holocaust memorial day excluded non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust but that isn't true and what about her comments about extra security at Jewish schools? I don't think it is unreasonable for Jewish schools to want extra security given the very recent history of attacks on them in Europe.

 

[James McFadden]

Worthwhile interview with Chakrabarti here - really disappointing performance from her.

I wasn't aware of precisely how dodgy the circumstances of her report was.

She actually joined the party to prepare an independent report.

And then she is ennobled by the party who commissioned her independent report.

And now it looks like she is being brought in as shadow AG - this being the person who prepared an independent report into anti-Semitism in the Labour party.

Sheesh...I wasn't even sure there was a major problem till I saw that.
She's a fuckin snake.

 

[Diamond]

Sheesh...I wasn't even sure there was a major problem till I saw that.
She's a fuckin snake.

The whole thing absolutely reeks of corruption and this from the former director of Liberty!

 

[Diamond]

It is genuinely worth watching from the beginning - she starts squirming straight away and is quicksilver slippery (although not very effective) throughout.

 

[bimble]

Just watched that, she does look very uncomfortable but I dunno really, she was going to be peeraged anyway inevitably with or without this little report. And his banging on asking which major Jewish institutions have supported you seemed pointless and the wrong question to ask. Having said that I do think the recommendations at the end of her report are kind of pathetic.

 

[James McFadden]

It is genuinely worth watching from the beginning - she starts squirming straight away and is quicksilver slippery (although not very effective) throughout.

I did. It's the eyes. She's not even good...all the classic 'tells'. I'd love to play poker with her...but to be fair, she'd be better just handing over all her dough and saving us both the time and trouble.

 

[Diamond]

The way that she uses Jo Cox to try and shut down the discussion early on is pretty nauseating.

 

[butchersapron]

The way that she uses Jo Cox to try and shut down the discussion early on is pretty nauseating.

Bring us more freedom.

 

[James McFadden]

The way that she uses Jo Cox to try and shut down the discussion early on is pretty nauseating.

It is.

 

[Raheem]

People aren't going after Walker because she is black or because her father is Jewish, they are going after her because what she said was anti-Semitic and instead of responding to objections to her comments by shutting up she has repeated the comments over and over.

There's also the fact that there's a civil war within the LP, though.

 

[frogwoman]

People have been talking about antisemitism on the left for years.

Ive kind of given up now because nobody is fucking listening.

 

[Pickman's model]

There's also the fact that there's a civil war within the LP, though.

Fucking 33 rpm

 

[Pickman's model]

Worthwhile interview with Chakrabarti here - really disappointing performance from her.

I wasn't aware of precisely how dodgy the circumstances of her report was.

She actually joined the party to prepare an independent report.

And then she is ennobled by the party who commissioned her independent report.

And now it looks like she is being brought in as shadow AG - this being the person who prepared an independent report into anti-Semitism in the Labour party.

Faux outrage and froth

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I don't see any problems with Shami Chakrabarti or that interview. She seemed to me to remain calm in the face of a hectoring attack by Andrew Neal who has a reputation for that style. I haven't read her report though.

 

[Idris2002]

Andrew Neil is basically Kelvin MacKenzie with a shave and a wash.

 

[free spirit]

It wasn't a nuanced perspective, she used an anti-Semitic trope used by cranks which doesn't have much if any historical truth to it anyway. Jews only made up a tiny minority of people who were responsible for the slave trade and they certainly were not its 'chief financiers' as Walker claimed, Walker also claimed that British Holocaust memorial day excluded non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust but that isn't true and what about her comments about extra security at Jewish schools? I don't think it is unreasonable for Jewish schools to want extra security given the very recent history of attacks on them in Europe.

Ms Walker defended her comments, posted on Facebook in February, saying they were complex.

"What I said was that some Jews were major financiers in the slave trade and some of those people were my ancestors - as were some slaves," she said.

"What I was pointing out in that context was that I have ancestors coming from both sides of a holocaust."

That's the nuance to her comments. Could she have put it better, probably, is she anti-semitic and was she making the point to incite anti-semitic sentiment, no.

I never said everyone criticising her was white, but the vast majority of the offended people in the meeting she made the latest comments at seemed to be from the video, and the vast majority of people on twitter calling for her to be sacked, and from a quick trawl I think the same applies to most of the media commentators.

John Mann is a particularly vocal example;

Labour MP John Mann called Ms Walker's comments "unacceptable in a modern political party" by any standard.

He also suggested the comments had "inspired waves of anti-Semitic and racist backlash including Holocaust denial".

That's a white non Jewish man accusing a black half Jewish woman of inciting an anti-semitic racist backlash and holocaust denial.

Here's something else she said at the recent meeting prior to the holocaust comments.

"What is extraordinary, amongst what can only be described as a tumult of accusations, is at this point, when discussions of racism in the Labour Party has the most media attention I have ever known, is that no person of colour, no group representing the interests of black and minority ethnic people has been heard - has been allowed to insert their perspective on this debate.

"Black people yet again have been made invisible."

Pretty bad IMO that the next thing that happens is that one of the highest profile BME activist to attempt to address the issue is then hounded out of the party and Momentum. That seems a very odd form of anti-racist action.

 

[timeforanother]

Right wing Zionists have been using these kind of arguments for decades. "Self hater" hasn't come out yet as a tactic.

Much as I hate descending into identity politics, as someone who has been beaten up for being a yid, I think I can comment on this.

Recently it has turned lots of decent people to navel gazing.

 

[free spirit]

John Mann's a weird one, probably the most vocal campaigner against anti-semitism in parliament, yet seems to have barely said anything about other forms of racism.

He was also the most vocal of those outraged about Naz Shah's facebook post and suspension, as well as Jackie Walker's comments and Malia Bouattia.

 

[timeforanother]

John Mann's a weird one, probably the most vocal campaigner against anti-semitism in parliament, yet seems to have barely said anything about other forms of racism.

He was also the most vocal of those outraged about Naz Shah's facebook post and suspension, as well as Jackie Walker's comments and Malia Bouattia.

And I've not seen much more intimidating from members of the same party than his treatment of Ken, he should have been suspended for that.

Yes, I know Ken was a gobshite, but only that.

I don't even read about all the accusations now, the majority of Labour need to get a grip on the bureaucracy, and let debate not be treading on eggshells.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino suggested that I ought to lie in bed worrying about how, by taking issue with anything Walker has said, I'm trivialising real genuine anti semitism. But don't want to get into this again, better for me to just leave the subject alone and defer to Nino, who knows exactly what is and is not

The one thing that really bugs me about your initial response was your dismissive attitude to my suggestion that racism has played a part in this. It would appear that there is, in your mind at least, a hierarchy of racisms in which anti-Semitism comes top and other forms of racism are further down the scale. Do you always dismiss black people's concerns of racism with a "you're imagining it" or "that's absurd"? The one that I've heard since I was a child was "you've got a chip on your shoulder". I'm surprised you didn't choose that as a reply tbh. Are you always this casually dismissive of concerns of racism? Clearly you take complaints of anti-Semitism more seriously, even if those complaints are without foundation.

 

[nino_savatte]

nino_savatte Happily, it's not up to you to declare whether or not what she or indeed anyone else says "can, in any way, be described as "anti-Semitic". With or without the inverted commas.
I sleep fine thanks.
Personally I find it hard to imagine the same generosity being extended to someone who said "I've never heard a definition of islamophobia / misogyny / racism that I can work with".

Yet you're quite happy to dismiss my concerns of racism but take flimsy suggestions of anti-Semitism more seriously.

They'd have loved you in the Jim Crow south.

 

[bimble]

The one thing that really bugs me about your initial response was your dismissive attitude to my suggestion that racism has played a part in this. It would appear that there is, in your mind at least, a hierarchy of racisms in which anti-Semitism comes top and other forms of racism are further down the scale. Do you always dismiss black people's concerns of racism with a "you're imagining it" or "that's absurd"? The one that I've heard since I was a child was "you've got a chip on your shoulder". I'm surprised you didn't choose that as a reply tbh. Are you always this casually dismissive of concerns of racism? Clearly you take complaints of anti-Semitism more seriously, even if those complaints are without foundation.

What are you on about. Where have I dismissed black peoples concerns of racism ? Are you saying walker has been suspended because she's black?

 

[nino_savatte]

What are you on about. Where have I dismissed black peoples concerns of racism ? Are you saying walker has been suspended because she's black?

You're either an idiot, a liar or you have a short memory. Go back and look at your initial reply to me, fuckwit.

 

[nino_savatte]

FFS. This is so boring now and so absurd.

This was the opening sentence of your reply, bimble

How is it absurd? Is it the case that you only see what you want to see?

 

[bimble]

You're either an idiot, a liar or you have a short memory. Go back and look at your initial reply to me, fuckwit.

Can't be arsed with you today. You lost me when you said that all the tensions are manufactured.

 

[nino_savatte]

People aren't going after Walker because she is black or because her father is Jewish, they are going after her because what she said was anti-Semitic and instead of responding to objections to her comments by shutting up she has repeated the comments over and over.

Nothing that she said was anti-Semitic. Nothing at all.

 

[nino_savatte]

Can't be arsed with you today. You lost me when you said that all the tensions are manufactured.

You're a complete and utter idiot. You put words into people's mouths and you respond with straw men. You also appear to suffer from a selective reading disorder.