Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[Wilf]

'Aides draw the wagons around beleagured Corbyn' is already the Guardian headline on the subject.

We definitely need a bingo card.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Saw Chris Bryant on the Sunday Politics and it seems the tactic is now definitely to cast Corbyn as the victim of those around him. Apparently Corbyn is not standing down because of the 'vanity' of his inner circle. So never attack Corbyn directly as that obviously doesn't work. He's a frail old man being duped and taken advantage of. In a sense, the PLP are like social workers intervening to protect him.

 

[Wilf]

I can't be arsed reading this, particularly as its Andrew Rawnsley, but I suspect the headline is spot on:
The Tory party has probably now passed peak chaos. Not so Labour | Andrew Rawnsley

 

[Saul Goodman]

100 pages in and he's still with us.
I'm so glad the OP was so wrong.

 

[Wilf]

Saw Chris Bryant on the Sunday Politics and it seems the tactic is now definitely to cast Corbyn as the victim of those around him. Apparently Corbyn is not standing down because of the 'vanity' of his inner circle. So never attack Corbyn directly as that obviously doesn't work. He's a frail old man being duped and taken advantage of. In a sense, the PLP are like social workers intervening to protect him.

Even the winner of the Brass Necked Cunt of the Year competition would look on these twats as unprincipled.

 

[Tankus]

any one actually see that ..?...it ended with Brillio saying "bless you " and Bryants "may your god go with you " and without doubt one of the most creepy soulless stare of death reanimated (just)from Bryant .... just ..EVER
I heard the door slam in the room next to mine ...but no one was there
WTF was that all about ?..or did I imagine it >

 

[Vintage Paw]

It was the oddest fucking ending to an interview ever.

 

[magneze]

any one actually see that ..?...it ended with Brillio saying "bless you " and Bryants "may your god go with you " and without doubt one of the most creepy soulless stare of death reanimated (just)from Bryant .... just ..EVER
I heard the door slam in the room next to mine ...but no one was there
WTF was that all about ?..or did I imagine it >

Yeah it was weird.

 

[Wilf]

any one actually see that ..?...it ended with Brillio saying "bless you " and Bryants "may your god go with you " and without doubt one of the most creepy soulless stare of death reanimated (just)from Bryant .... just ..EVER
I heard the door slam in the room next to mine ...but no one was there
WTF was that all about ?..or did I imagine it >

Wasn't Bryant the one who was spreading the rumour that corbyn voted leave?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I've just been tidying up my office and came across a Pamphlet containing essays by Brian Abel-Smith, Richard Titmus, Peter Townsend (the Sociology Prof) and Richard Crossman.
Just flicking through and I came across two quotes from Townsend which very Labour MP claiming to stand as a social democrat, claiming to stand in the historic mainstream of the party, and claiming that Corbyn is standing alone in some sort of alien hard left desert, should read and consider:

It will be one of the supreme paradoxes of history if social inequalities become wider instead of narrower and poverty more widespread during the term in office of the present Labour Government. Yet the likelihood of this happening is far from remote. Here is a political movement whose egalitarian ideals were nurtured by the degradations which millions of men, women and children endured...much tht is important and indeed noble in the search for a humane social order, unselfishness, partnership, solidarity, fair shares, common responsibility and above all the elimination of poverty is crystallised in the concept.
Townsend P. 1967 p. 39

Partly our problem is one with which it is irresponsible to pretend that Government Ministers must wrestle alone. Tawney reminded us, "Nothing could be more remote from Socialist ideals than the competitive scramble of a society which pays lip service to equality, but too often means by it merely equal opportunities of becoming unequal." He warned against 2 the corrupting influence of a false standard of values, which perverts, not only in education, but wide tracts of thought and life. It is this demon - the idolatry of money and success - with, not in one sphere alone but in all, including our hearts and minds, Socialists have to grapple".
Townsend P. 1967 p68-69
​

These aren't words from the loony left, or from the manifesto of some communist grouplet; they are the words of then Professor of Sociology at the University of Essex, and much more importantly the one time chair of the Fabian Society.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Wilf]

I've just been tidying up my office and came across a Pamphlet containing essays by Brian Abel-Smith, Richard Titmus, Peter Townsend (the Sociology Prof) and Richard Crossman.
Just flicking through and I came across two quotes from Townsend which very Labour MP claiming to stand as a social democrat, claiming to stand in the historic mainstream of the party, and claiming that Corbyn is standing alone in some sort of alien hard left desert, should read and consider:

It will be one of the supreme paradoxes of history if social inequalities become wider instead of narrower and poverty more widespread during the term in office of the present Labour Government. Yet the likelihood of this happening is far from remote. Here is a political movement whose egalitarian ideals were nurtured by the degradations which millions of men, women and children endured...much tht is important and indeed noble in the search for a humane social order, unselfishness, partnership, solidarity, fair shares, common responsibility and above all the elimination of poverty is crystallised in the concept.
Townsend P. 1967 p. 39

Partly our problem is one with which it is irresponsible to pretend that Government Ministers must wrestle alone. Tawney reminded us, "Nothing could be more remote from Socialist ideals than the competitive scramble of a society which pays lip service to equality, but too often means by it merely equal opportunities of becoming unequal." He warned against 2 the corrupting influence of a false standard of values, which perverts, not only in education, but wide tracts of thought and life. It is this demon - the idolatry of money and success - with, not in one sphere alone but in all, including our hearts and minds, Socialists have to grapple".
Townsend P. 1967 p68-69
​

These aren't words from the loony left, from the manifesto of some communist grouplet; they are the words of then Professor of Sociology at the University of Essex, and much more importantly the one time chair of the Fabian Society.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

That's a timely reminder that there are several suits of clothes - gradualist, Fabian, social democrat - that the right of the Labour Party have no right to wear. It's sometimes all too easy to dismiss them simply as 'neo-liberals', there are plenty of nuances in there, but most of all they have no sense that the game is transforming society. In reality, Corbyn himself is more the heir to that LSE tradition of social policy, if not quite as paternalistic. However I'd be critical of him for repeating some of the problems of that tradition, essentially the belief that redistributive taxes + the welfare state + nationalisation actually amounts to a socialist transformation.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

That's a timely reminder that there are several suits of clothes - gradualist, Fabian, social democrat - that the right of the Labour Party have no right to wear. It's sometimes all too easy to dismiss them simply as 'neo-liberals', there are plenty of nuances in there, but most of all they have no sense that the game is transforming society. In reality, Corbyn himself is more the heir to that LSE tradition of social policy, if not quite as paternalistic. However I'd be critical of him for repeating some of the problems of that tradition, essentially the belief that redistributive taxes + the welfare state + nationalisation actually amounts to a socialist transformation.

I'd agree with you there. As I'm sure you appreciated, my point isn't to big up Townsend or the Fabian tradition, but rather to point out what is either ignorance or dishonesty on the part of those trying to claim a tradition which isn't theirs and demonise an individual and an outlook.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[nino_savatte]

Said it before, but just not sure Schneiders the right person to have upfront for Momentum - would much prefer to have Mat Wrack (FBU) as the media spokesman, really impressed with him in the last week or so .

I don't think it matters who's the 'face' of Momentum tbh, because as far as the Labour Right and hacks like Gilligan are concerned, Momentum is a [insert leftist groupuscule name] entryist group/cult/'party-within-a-party' that wants to take us back to the 1970s (sic). Therefore the spokesperson is, by default, the 'enemy' because of his/her association with the 'dangerous left-wing organisation'. But then, you also need to ask the question "who would be acceptable in the eyes of the media and the plotters"? No one.

Meanwhile, the Tories want to take us back to the 19th century or earlier.

It was pointed out to me earlier that the Gilligoon article was published 6 months ago. Yesterday's news is somehow today's news.

 

[Wilf]

I'd agree with you there. As I'm sure you appreciated, my point isn't to big up Townsend or the Fabian tradition, but rather to point what is either ignorance or dishonesty on the part of those trying to claim a tradition which isn't theirs and demonise an individual and an outlook.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Yes, badly written on my part, looked like I was suggesting you were rosy spectacled about Fabianism... I wasn't... we agree.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Corbyn support messages written on Cornwall's beaches - BBC News

Look who it is!!!!

 

[Tankus]

I went back on I player to have a look at that Bryant interview again ....his death stare and Brillos... Bless you ...have been edited ...

Images lost in time ...like..............

 

[Vintage Paw]

I went back on I player to have a look at that Bryant interview again ....his stare and Brillos... Bless you ...have been edited ...

Images lost in time ...like..............

Brillo is no fan of Bryant's, I understand. I expect the feeling is mutual.

 

[treelover]

Shirley Williams has just said that Corbyn is in hock to the SWP! If she believes that she is a fool. If she doesn't then she's a liar. Her comments were echoed by Edwina Curry. Perhaps this is the latest anti-Corbyn tactic that will be employed?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

many are basing it on the Parliametary Rally, where SWP placards were in abundance, i was shouted down on here for noting this would be used against JC, etc, i wasn't talking about the SWP's influence, etc(they have none)

 

[treelover]

The 172 back stabbers have been dis-inivited from the Durham Miners Gala - and watson is being replaced as speaker by Dennis Skinner.

Most of them don't go, but its symbolic.

 

[treelover]

I suppose they rallied the 172 - their strongest card in the struggle so far - purely on the basis that it was a secret ballot. But yes, I think I think your analysis of the balance of forces and how it might play out right through to another leadership vote is correct. Trouble is, what emerges at the end of all this, even if its a crisis entirely manufactured by the blairites. Not likely a Labour Party that's in better shape to win a first past the post general election. If he presses on and wins another leadership vote, the Blairites are not likely to go off quietly and play with their money. We may well be past the point where a 'unity candidate' could hold the thing together, and in some ways that might be the worst outcome anyway (the sniping and briefing would just carry on, along with a few revenge deselections).

Can we have some hope?

 

[treelover]

I've just been tidying up my office and came across a Pamphlet containing essays by Brian Abel-Smith, Richard Titmus, Peter Townsend (the Sociology Prof) and Richard Crossman.
Just flicking through and I came across two quotes from Townsend which very Labour MP claiming to stand as a social democrat, claiming to stand in the historic mainstream of the party, and claiming that Corbyn is standing alone in some sort of alien hard left desert, should read and consider:

It will be one of the supreme paradoxes of history if social inequalities become wider instead of narrower and poverty more widespread during the term in office of the present Labour Government. Yet the likelihood of this happening is far from remote. Here is a political movement whose egalitarian ideals were nurtured by the degradations which millions of men, women and children endured...much tht is important and indeed noble in the search for a humane social order, unselfishness, partnership, solidarity, fair shares, common responsibility and above all the elimination of poverty is crystallised in the concept.
Townsend P. 1967 p. 39

Partly our problem is one with which it is irresponsible to pretend that Government Ministers must wrestle alone. Tawney reminded us, "Nothing could be more remote from Socialist ideals than the competitive scramble of a society which pays lip service to equality, but too often means by it merely equal opportunities of becoming unequal." He warned against 2 the corrupting influence of a false standard of values, which perverts, not only in education, but wide tracts of thought and life. It is this demon - the idolatry of money and success - with, not in one sphere alone but in all, including our hearts and minds, Socialists have to grapple".
Townsend P. 1967 p68-69
​

These aren't words from the loony left, or from the manifesto of some communist grouplet; they are the words of then Professor of Sociology at the University of Essex, and much more importantly the one time chair of the Fabian Society.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Can I post that elsewhere?, its excellent.

 

[treelover]

That's a timely reminder that there are several suits of clothes - gradualist, Fabian, social democrat - that the right of the Labour Party have no right to wear. It's sometimes all too easy to dismiss them simply as 'neo-liberals', there are plenty of nuances in there, but most of all they have no sense that the game is transforming society. In reality, Corbyn himself is more the heir to that LSE tradition of social policy, if not quite as paternalistic. However I'd be critical of him for repeating some of the problems of that tradition, essentially the belief that redistributive taxes + the welfare state + nationalisation actually amounts to a socialist transformation.

It helps though, especially if you are at the bottom, i could live with it, if it came back.

 

[Wilf]

It helps though, especially if you are at the bottom, i could live with it, if it came back.

Well, I'm not some kind of purist, anarcho or of any other kind. I'd rather Labour won the last election and I'd rather have a corbynised version of Labour than any other that we've seen for a few decades. I'm also not an absolutist about what can be achieved within particular 'periods'. WE live in an era of neoliberalism, but it doesn't map onto particular countries in ways that rule out all possibilities.

Having said that, Labourism and social democracy were of a particular time. They had a job to do as part of the post-war settlement, they were the centre left's version of that settlement. They made gains in those circumstances, but didn't survive the 70s. Nothing like the whole package is going to return. In fact if the whole corbyn project is going to move on from being a nostalgic tribute act, it needs to think what a modernised social democracy might look like.

 

[treelover]

Well, give some outlines, basic income?

 

[newbie]

But then, you also need to ask the question "who would be acceptable in the eyes of the media and the plotters"? No one.

Alan Johnson?

 

[pengaleng]

i agree that he's made up

 

[billy_bob]

Alan Johnson?

Ah, the "I'm working class, so I'm only a right wing cunt because I know what real life's like" candidate.

 

[newbie]

Ah, the "I'm working class, so I'm only a right wing cunt because I know what real life's like" candidate.

that's him. Media friendly, experienced, backstabber. Won't satisfy the Momentum/Corbynists of course... oops, as you were, I now realise I misread the question nino_savatte asked

 

[killer b]

many are basing it on the Parliametary Rally, where SWP placards were in abundance, i was shouted down on here for noting this would be used against JC, etc, i wasn't talking about the SWP's influence, etc(they have none)

No you weren't. You were 'shouted down' for still wanking on about it days after it had happened in the middle of a discussion about something else.

 

[chilango]

The SWP "smear" is irrelevant. Nobody IRL gives a fuck. Most people haven't heard of them or at least haven't seen anything of them in a decade or two. The days of having copies of the paper thrust into yer face on the high street aren't even memories anymore. As a smear it has zero traction.