Is this woman a transphobe?

[hitmouse]

If anyone fancies reading what Sara Ahmed has to say, here's some Sara Ahmed:

Gender Critical = Gender Conservative

Content Warning: The following post includes a discussion of transphobia and transmisogyny. How has gender become a map of a moment? Why do so many movements present themselves as against gender? I…

feministkilljoys.com

 

[Serene]

People objecting to a person on Telly with a partly formed arm? A decade ago. Some types of people dont like to see people whom are different to them.

 

[8ball]

People objecting to a person on Telly with a partly formed arm? A decade ago. Some types of people dont like to see people whom are different to them.

Yeah, it's exactly that. There will be similar howls when trans people become more visible in "nothing to do with trans status" places.
It's real shame she left the channel, but I hear she writes children's books which are doing very well now.

I know it was a decade ago, but I don't feel like we've really moved forward much in that time.

 

[Serene]

One arm partly formed.
Was actually a decade ago - time flies!

Yeah, it's exactly that. There will be similar howls when trans people become more visible in "nothing to do with trans status" places.
It's real shame she left the channel, but I hear she writes children's books which are doing very well now.

I know it was a decade ago, but I don't feel like we've really moved forward much in that time.

Trans-Women is a much much more difficult genre in which to change public opinion towards being favourable. It is rare that a Trans-Woman can " pass " as a congenital Woman. Such types of people, as with Gay people, have been criminalised and persecuted for a long time. So for the majority of Trans-Woman who decide to live publicly as a female, well, as they themselves know, they are facing violence every time they go outside. The general Public will take a long long time to see it as " normal ". Gay people, although still subject to violence from men ( as indeed are all types of people! ), and fought long and hard for an acceptance, had it easier than Trans-Women are facing.
Andrej Pejic, the androgenous model, became Andreja Pejic, and that is a wonderful and positive story ( her story ). She benefitted from very much passing as the Woman that she subjectively is. For the majority of Trans-Women who simply look like men, well, realistically it is going to be a long time before the Public get used to seeing them dressed en femme.

 

[Raheem]

Yeah, it's exactly that. There will be similar howls when trans people become more visible in "nothing to do with trans status" places.
It's real shame she left the channel, but I hear she writes children's books which are doing very well now.

I know it was a decade ago, but I don't feel like we've really moved forward much in that time.

I don't think it was parents in general complaining, just some confused weirdos. The idea was that kids would be frightened.

That said, I do expect that putting a trans person on Cbeebies as a presenter now would put the licence fee at serious risk.

 

[Serge Forward]

That said, I do expect that putting a trans person on Cbeebies as a presenter now would put the licence fee at serious risk.

They should really do this*. That would piss off the 'war on woke' brigade no end






*They won't

 

[Serene]

I think they key towards bringing all people together is the trend towards andogenous fashions. Most Women now wear joggers and trainers or androgenous types of footwear, and so do the men! A person could dress androgenously and be on trend! I know this isnt nearby any solution, however, each sex can dress near alike the other nowadays. I have noticed manbags becoming more feminine, and the men who wear them are very brave. Pioneers.

 

[8ball]

Raheem - There were enough complaints to be taken seriously (and a lot of support for her tbf). Was a case of parents' fear being picked up on by kids imo. V. depressing. Loads of kids loved her and there were plenty who didn't even notice her arm, with most just asking a question about it and accepting that sometimes some people are born a little different.

Serene - yes it was kind of my point that if even a minor disability causes such a fuss, then in the febrile climate we have now things seem very dificult.

 

[Serene]

Raheem - There were enough complaints to be taken seriously (and a lot of support for her tbf). Was a case of parents' fear being picked up on by kids imo. V. depressing. Loads of kids loved her and there were plenty who didn't even notice her arm, with most just asking a question about it and accepting that sometimes some people are born a little different.

Serene - yes it was kind of my point that if even a minor disability causes such a fuss, then in the febrile climate we have now things seem very dificult.

It takes a long long time before the Public see something very unusual as normal. Generations.

 

[IC3D]

I get the feeling that the most bitter fighting is between lesbians and trans women who identify as lesbians, I can't see that getting resolved soon. It seems really toxic from what I've seen on twitter. I guess that's the internet for you.

 

[Raheem]

Some lesbians.

 

[smokedout]

If anyone fancies reading what Sara Ahmed has to say, here's some Sara Ahmed:

Gender Critical = Gender Conservative

Content Warning: The following post includes a discussion of transphobia and transmisogyny. How has gender become a map of a moment? Why do so many movements present themselves as against gender? I…

feministkilljoys.com

Was just going to post that. I think it's important, particularly for the cis men who have dived into this debate to protect women, that it is understood that a lot of feminists, particularly internationally, see the aims and tactics of the gender critical movement as being harmful for women. The religious/alt right hasn't entered this debate because they are worried about women being attacked in toilets but because they have recognised that gender critical feminism contains within it a deeply reactionary seed which is more likely to end up enforcing gender conformity than liberating women.

It's difficult to see how things like bathroom bills, or even forcing the gender freaks to use 'third spaces' will do anything but entrench social pressure to conform to gendered expectations. A lot of feminists are opposed to this rhetoric, not because they are woke, or want to 'be kind' but because they can see the dangers for women in this trajectory.

And those dangers are already manifesting. The rise of wankers like Andy Ngo, Toby Young and Douglas Murray as men who now feel empowered to speak on (their brand of) feminism. The anti-vaxxer Keira Bell now threatening Gillick competence in the courts backed by evangelical lawyers. The rolling back of protections for women, or lack of support for them, because they are 'pointless'. As an example mumsnet recently tried to get a campaign going to force Liz Truss to re-established gender pay gap reporting which was suspended due to Covid. The readership of the feminist board were unanimous - what's the point, no-one knows what a woman is anymore, despite the fact that trans women, who live and work as women, probably make up around 0.1% of women overall. The undermining of the Equality Act by claiming the permitted exemptions to discrimination in the act represent 'sex based rights' - something which could be used to call for straight based rights, or race based rights on exactly the same legal grounds (the exemptions apply to all the protected characteristics).

We currently have a government in power, and a Women's and Equalities Minister in Liz Truss, who would wipe out all legal workplace protections for women, includng the Equality Act, if they get the chance. Truss ran a think tank calling for measures exactly along those lines. Exactly what protections are gender critical feminists prepared to sacrifice in the name of owning the trans?

I think all this points to one of the reasons for the generational divide on this issue amongst feminists. The legacy of the gender critical movement could prove pretty devastating to the next generation of women. So think on that chaps before you stick your oar in. There are much wider issues at stake in ths conflict and you might not turn out to have been on women's side.

 

[Ms T]

I don't think it was parents in general complaining, just some confused weirdos. The idea was that kids would be frightened.

That said, I do expect that putting a trans person on Cbeebies as a presenter now would put the licence fee at serious risk.

There already is one:

Dr Ronx Ikharia: The trans non-binary doctor and TV presenter inspiring youth today

The medic is one of 10 everyday LGBTQ heroes honoured at the Attitude Pride Awards 2021, supported by Clifford Chance.

attitude.co.uk

 

[smmudge]

If anyone fancies reading what Sara Ahmed has to say, here's some Sara Ahmed:

Gender Critical = Gender Conservative

Content Warning: The following post includes a discussion of transphobia and transmisogyny. How has gender become a map of a moment? Why do so many movements present themselves as against gender? I…

feministkilljoys.com

I took Sara Ahmed's course for one of my masters modules, she gave me a first for an essay about race and psychiatry

 

[8ball]

There already is one:

Dr Ronx Ikharia: The trans non-binary doctor and TV presenter inspiring youth today

The medic is one of 10 everyday LGBTQ heroes honoured at the Attitude Pride Awards 2021, supported by Clifford Chance.

attitude.co.uk

Didn't know that.
Kind of an occasional third presenter on the show, and nonbinary androgynous types aren't the most likely to raise hackles, but still encouraging.

 

[Serene]

I havent heard of Dr Ronx. I am reading through the article. Here is an interesting quote from them.

“It was important for me in that show to be clear about how to do it safely and to show the world of trans non- binary people,” they maintain. “I just want the world to know that we exist. You may not get it, you may not like it, but it’s making space for us to exist on this spectrum of life.”



Et aussi

Ronx shrugs off the suggestion, too, that being an ambassador for their community is anything but a privilege: "When people ask, is it hard being trans non-binary on telly, in media? Is it hard having a voice? I say no, because everything that I am is a bonus. I only ever thought that I would be a doctor.”


They go on: “There are so many people who have got so much to give, but don’t have the, kind of, assertiveness that I do, that I feel annoyed for, because hearing ‘Who cares about trans people?’ ‘Who cares about racism? Isn’t racism dead?’ ‘Feminism, who needs feminism?’ – hearing all of that rhetoric as a young person is tough.


“Without visible role models, you can succumb to being, like, ‘What’s the bloody point if people are going to vote Trump? What’s the point if people are always going to have right-wing views? What’s the point if, when I go to work, I don’t see people that look like me? What’s the point if there are discriminatory policies and guidance that basically mean that my existence is harder than other people’s?’


“It’s those people that I think of when I do things like this,” Ronx asserts.

 

[Ms T]

Didn't know that.
Kind of an occasional third presenter on the show, and nonbinary androgynous types aren't the most likely to raise hackles, but still encouraging.

I think given that only a very small percentage of the population are trans, and an even smaller amount are TV presenters, it's definitely encouraging.

 

[Orang Utan]

Didn't know that.
Kind of an occasional third presenter on the show, and nonbinary androgynous types aren't the most likely to raise hackles, but still encouraging.

Dunno about that. Have seen an ex-Urban poster on Twitter describe non-binary people as ‘self-obsessed’.

 

[Raheem]

There already is one:

Dr Ronx Ikharia: The trans non-binary doctor and TV presenter inspiring youth today

The medic is one of 10 everyday LGBTQ heroes honoured at the Attitude Pride Awards 2021, supported by Clifford Chance.

attitude.co.uk

I didn't know, although this is CBBC rather than Cbeebies. Less watched by parents.

 

[8ball]

Dunno about that. Have seen an ex-Urban poster on Twitter describe non-binary people as ‘self-obsessed’.

Ronx hardly comes over as self-obsessed on the show. Though being non-threatening and a good telly presenter didnt do the lass with the short arm that much hood tbf.

 

[Serene]

Allegedly Terry Gilliam, the Monty Python person, has been cancelled by staff at his new production at the Old Vic due to staff unease at some of his previous comments. Allegedly some of his staff were unhappy with previous controversial remarks made by the Actor. He recently defended the comedian Dave Chappelle, whose most recent comedy special included comments deemed by some to be transphobic.

Terry Gilliam's Into the Woods cancelled by Old Vic after reports of staff unease

 

[Steel Icarus]

Saw this today during some work-related LGBT+ training, made sense to me

 

[8ball]

Allegedly Terry Gilliam, the Monty Python person, has been cancelled by staff at his new production at the Old Vic due to staff unease at some of his previous comments. Allegedly some of his staff were unhappy with previous controversial remarks made by the Actor. He recently defended the comedian Dave Chappelle, whose most recent comedy special included comments deemed by some to be transphobic.

Terry Gilliam's Into the Woods cancelled by Old Vic after reports of staff unease

Fucking hell, I'd love to be able to stop shit happening at work just cos I felt "uneasy".

 

[Raheem]

Fucking hell, I'd love to be able to stop shit happening at work just cos I felt "uneasy".

Assuming you're not the only one, you can (not that it's always going to be easy, or that success is a given).

 

[8ball]

Assuming you're not the only one, you can (not that it's always going to be easy, or that success is a given).

Been plenty of cases where I wasn’t the only one feeling uneasy but was the only one loudly saying it. As far as I know no one has died as a result, which is something.

If I was working at a Theatre on a play I can’t see myself downing tools over someone’s prior comments unless they were an out and out fascist, though.

If there was something really bad in the production itself then things might be different.

 

[spanglechick]

Allegedly Terry Gilliam, the Monty Python person, has been cancelled by staff at his new production at the Old Vic due to staff unease at some of his previous comments. Allegedly some of his staff were unhappy with previous controversial remarks made by the Actor. He recently defended the comedian Dave Chappelle, whose most recent comedy special included comments deemed by some to be transphobic.

Terry Gilliam's Into the Woods cancelled by Old Vic after reports of staff unease

Tbf, the trans stuff is the least part of his problematic comments over the last few years. The stuff about Me Too was deliberate, repeated and foul.

Theatre has many problems of its own to work on, but one of its strengths is that it is often more political, less market-driven than the movie business. Making high-budget stage magic is a huge privilege. If you repeatedly say cunty things, don’t be surprised when that privilege is sometimes removed from you.

It’s a shame, I’d have loved to see it. But there’s no shortage of different creative people to give that privilege to. Some of them aren’t even old rich white men whith revolting views.

 

[spanglechick]

Been plenty of cases where I wasn’t the only one feeling uneasy but was the only one loudly saying it. As far as I know no one has died as a result, which is something.

If I was working at a Theatre on a play I can’t see myself downing tools over someone’s prior comments unless they were an out and out fascist, though.

If there was something really bad in the production itself then things might be different.

They weren’t working on it yet. It was planned for the future.

 

[Serene]

If I was working at a Theatre on a play I can’t see myself downing tools over someone’s prior comments unless they were an out and out fascist, though.

It does say

The reasons for the cancellation have not been made explicitly clear, and the theatre only posted a short announcement on its website last week.

 

[8ball]

They weren’t working on it yet. It was planned for the future.

Fair point. I don’t know the content of the comments either tbf.

 

[belboid]

When the director makes a shitload of comments that run in opposition to the theme of the play, it’s pretty damned reasonable to object to them. How the hell it got this far is the really odd thing.