I agree, but maybe this is how it happens. Or maybe things will just be different but equally oppressive. I think there's an element of reform vs revolution in all this and that is one of the many reasons for the ferocity of this debate on the left (or at least a perception from older generations of lefties that that's what this is about). Nothing else has worked to get rid of gender though, and I don't buy these nostalgic claims of gender breaking down in the 70/80s because Duran Duran wore eye liner and there were less pink toys on sale. It was still controversial back then for a woman with children to have a fucking job. And maybe that describes what I'm trying to get at. At the peak of industrial capitalism at the beginning of the last century healthcare for working class people was so bad, and child mortality so high that young working class women had to be kept virtually permanently pregnant or nursing just to ensure an adequate supply of future workers - and as such gender roles were very much attached to physical sex. Now that's no longer the case, and capital has recognised the advantages of extracting the surplus labour from two members of each family unit instead of just one, gender is no longer necessary to enforce a womans role as an (unpaid reproductive) worker. And as it no longer needs the attachment to physical sex gender is reforming as a way to dictate your role as a consumer, uncoupled from sex, and which to me seems much less stable. Hopefully.
Is this woman a transphobe?
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I agree, but maybe this is how it happens. Or maybe things will just be different but equally oppressive. I think there's an element of reform vs revolution in all this and that is one of the many reasons for the ferocity of this debate on the left (or at least a perception from older generations of lefties that that's what this is about). Nothing else has worked to get rid of gender though, and I don't buy these nostalgic claims of gender breaking down in the 70/80s because Duran Duran wore eye liner and there were less pink toys on sale. It was still controversial back then for a woman with children to have a fucking job. And maybe that describes what I'm trying to get at. At the peak of industrial capitalism at the beginning of the last century healthcare for working class people was so bad, and child mortality so high that young working class women had to be kept virtually permanently pregnant or nursing just to ensure an adequate supply of future workers - and as such gender roles were very much attached to physical sex. Now that's no longer the case, and capital has recognised the advantages of extracting the surplus labour from two members of each family unit instead of just one, gender is no longer necessary to enforce a womans role as an (unpaid reproductive) worker. And as it no longer needs the attachment to physical sex gender is reforming as a way to dictate your role as a consumer, uncoupled from sex, and which to me seems much less stable. Hopefully.
Out of stock."I think"
Like the 5 star review though:
Alexander P.
5.0 out of 5 stars A gateway candy...
Reviewed in the United States on 4 April 2016
Verified Purchase
These are the old-school candy cigarettes, although they don't SAY "cigarette" anywhere on the box because hey, let's face it, these are a gateway candy. You start off on these and eventually you're onto bubble gum cigars, Big League Chew, and then, heroin. These are the good-tasting ones, too, not those chalky nasty ones that came about at one point. And you can't beat the price--24 packs for $9! A hell of a lot cheaper than a real pack and looks just as cool rolled up in the sleeve of my grease-stained white t-shirt.
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8ball
Decolonise colons!
I think it’s bang on.
Perhaps I should try and expand on it a bit then, although I'm trying to articulate this for the first time so bear with me if I end up talking shit.
I think most people have an inherent understanding of what sex they are, which they have understod since infancy and they are largely at peace with. They may not like aspects of their body, or even aspects of their sex such as menstruation, and they certainly might not like the gendered assumptions that come attached to their sex, but broadly they don't seek to change anything, don't hate their genitals, can function adequately sexually within their sex, and don't deeply desire, or feel they should have the body of the opposite sex. For the old school mumsnet approved transsexuals however that's not the case. The classic 'transsexual' child often doesn't just claim to want to be the other sex, but insists they are the other sex, often from as early as they can articulate it, and they keep insisting it until they become gender critical shills or die. I think it's probably more accurate to describe this as sex dysphoria rather than gender dysphoria - they are at odds with their bodies, not their social role, and this often led a lot of people to look for neurological or biological explanations for this that are rightly read as regressive - having the wrong body for your brain etc. I think people sought to medicalise their condition as away of deflecting from the shame they felt at being that way - it's not my fault, I was born this way - and a way to seek social approval for the same reason the emerging LGB movement sometimes made similar claims.
Under this model, and due to the hostile social conditions of the time, it's likely only the most sex dysphoric would go as far as transition - I mentioned upthread the first two trans women I ever met who told me not to transition unless I was suicidal and felt I really couldn't live another day as a man. But this model didn't really work for a lot of people, and felt like not just surrender to transphobia but also a form of gatekeeping from the older 'true trans' population. Sex dysphoria can be of differering strengths, and manifest in different ways and this was always the case, and what happened is people who didn't feel compelled to physically transition (or were too scared to) found solace in the LGB movement in things like the drag queen or butch communities, or if born physically male ended up in the transvestite quagmire - a highly sexualised identity which largely developed in the interests of male fetishists and those males who wanted to fuck them and alienated everyone else. But there were always transvestites who were not sexually motivated, who lived in the opposite gender to their birth sex all or most of the time (when they weren't at work for example), but who didn't seek surgery. Also there were always people who felt somewhat in the middle and were somewhat adrift although people were calling themselves genderqueer as early as the 90s if not before. And when a new generation emerged and started to build a language and way of articulating differing experiences of both sex and gender this was ferociously resisted by a lot of older trans people, who saw it as a threat because they didn't want to be visible or politicised and felt it undermined their own struggles. So there was an almighty row in the trans community abut it, which ultimately got resolved by an understanding that everyone experiences these things differently, they can be difficult to articulate, and probably the best thing to do is respect people's identities and not dictate to people what they should call themelves or what counts as being a legitimate transsexual. But I guess this is where the relationship between sex identity and gender identity started to get even more complex and influenced by things like aesthetics, preferences, and even political statements.
But even without this sex, and gender, and the interplay between them is still complex. Presentation doesn't just end at clothes and make up for example, many cis people alter their physicality to more closely match their assigned gender whether that's shaving their legs, getting ripped at the gym, having breast enlargement surgery etc. The pressure to conform to the gender assigned based on our physical sex is immense, and our internal maps of ourselves are unlikely to be able to truly untangle the two - it's been imprinted on us from birth, and those whose sex identity is askew may look to those of the sex they seek to be and emulate them. So someone with less intense sex dysphoria, or a mismatched sex identity, or a blurry sex identity, might gain comfort from changing their gender presentation and social role and this is enough for them - without a need for surgery, because that's actually quite a big deal, comes with consequences and is prohibitively expensive or very difficult to access in many countries (including the UK). But what underlies it is discomfort with their sex,and I suspect if you said to most binary trans people you can change your physical sex by waving a magic wand they would jump at the chance because it is bodies that lie at the core of the discomfort not stereotypes or social roles. In fact I suspect if you said to binary trans people you have a choice between remaining in the sexed body you were born with but changing your gender role, or changing the sexed body you were born with but remaining in the gender role you were assigned based on your birth sex then most would choose the second as the least worst option. When those who go onto transition, or seek trans healthcare, talk about gender dysphoria they often really mean bodily dysphoria based on their physical sex, and this may be present and a motivating factor to a greater or lesser degree in lots of people whose gender identity is not in accordance with their physical sex.
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Just on that point ,smokedout I went to an lgbt meetup ages ago and there was an elderly gay man* (possibly not the best way to refer to this person sorry) who kept bring referred to and referring to themselves as 'she' and 'old girl' by their (her?) male partner despite not being obviously trans and dressing in masculine clothes and not looking feminine in any way, with others at the meetup referring to them as a man and apparently not bothered by it
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I also met a middle aged trans woman in Russia who asked me to use female pronouns despite being outwardly male in every way other than some nail varnish , didn't strike me as being predatory or sexualised or anything just in a very difficult situation tbh as I think she'd been out for some years but due to the intensely intolerant climate had not been able to transition in any meaningful way
I did quite a lot of drinking round Soho and Compton Street for a period in the early 90s and it was pretty common for gay guys on that scene to refer to each other with female pronouns, think it's pretty much died out now though.
Reno
The In Kraut
I'm of a generation of gay men where we still do that occasionally or more precisely, we do it because the previous generation of gay men did that and its part of honouring gay history and doing it with a sense of humor. It's not to be taken seriously and indicative how gay men were playful with their own gender identity, which kept constantly being challenged in a heteronormative society. I grew up gay in the 70s and 80s and had my masculinity questioned all the time, I'd even say I had my masculinity denied for being gay, so we fought for what masculinity could encompass and feminists and lesbians did the same with femininity, rather than opting out of gender as is more common now. Drag wasn't about being a woman, drag challenged how far masculinity could stretch and clones who adopted a hyper masculine style were at the other end of the masculine spectrum.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
A hangover from polari.
Reno
The In Kraut
You'll also find that in many countries which never had polari, like in Germany where I live now.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I was gonna say (and this may be a bit controversial tbh) while I said that lefties going towards terf shit have comprehensively been played I think that, as a bi / leaning towards lesbian woman lol there's a number of reasons why I and possibly others were attracted to terf stuff tbh. Growing up in the 2000s as a teenager on gay chatrooms I'd often try and talk to other women and there would invariably be straight cis guys saying 'im a lesbian in a man's body' usually followed by a dick pick and asking highly invasive/sexualised questions. I'd also say that I had a pretty problematic relationship with gender although I don't actually want to be a man I often think in stereotypically masculine ways and like HoratioCuthbert can feel uncomfortable in groups of women hahah , so when terfs talk about how trans people are narrowing the boundaries of what is considered feminine or what a woman can be I think it is easy for butch women like myself to be somewhat disturbed by it. None of this really has anything to do with trans people though or is something they can be remotely held responsible for but a whole conspiracy theory has been constructed out of it.
Likewise with all the stuff a couple years back over how trans activists were allegedly trying to pressurise lesbians to have sex with them or something, it's easy for someone to get freaked out about that given that it is what straight society has done all our lives and think 'oh shit were going to have to go back into the closet again' or something, whereas my overriding impression from trans people and even trans activists I got to know is that this is a completely fringe position and most of them just want people to live comfortably with whatever changes to their body they want.
I think like any conspiracy theory it is something that people who are marginalised in some way can be susceptible to and in this case unfortunately it includes the LGBT community. I'm a lil bit tired now tbh and possibly not making any sense lol.
Likewise with all the stuff a couple years back over how trans activists were allegedly trying to pressurise lesbians to have sex with them or something, it's easy for someone to get freaked out about that given that it is what straight society has done all our lives and think 'oh shit were going to have to go back into the closet again' or something, whereas my overriding impression from trans people and even trans activists I got to know is that this is a completely fringe position and most of them just want people to live comfortably with whatever changes to their body they want.
I think like any conspiracy theory it is something that people who are marginalised in some way can be susceptible to and in this case unfortunately it includes the LGBT community. I'm a lil bit tired now tbh and possibly not making any sense lol.
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
However if you look at facts it's gender criticals obsessively policing stuff like dress etc hence all the stuff on terf twitter about a fucking John Lewis advert in the last couple of days for example or like ridiculing whatever pronouns people want to be referred to as
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Even though I'm not always 100% in agreement I massively appreciate your posts (and politics) on this, so thanks so much, especially that one, dead thought provoking and challenging. Thanks for sticking with it (us)!
I think going back to this post from Knotted, in particular:
2b) The terms "man" and "woman" are clear cut biological terms (with the caveat that there is no difference between "male" and "female" brains)
I'm not sure that criticism of gender, or more specifically of male and female brains is still an essential part of gender critical ideology. Helen Joyce's recent book 'Trans', which she claimed wasn't about trans people lol, and which was very well received in the gender critical movement, talks about the evolved female psyche. I doubt Conservative Women, or the many evangelicals in the US who now call themselves gender critical have a radical feminist analysis of gender. In fact more than once I've seen it as a point of attack - you can't be a women because you don't have a female brain. And there's a whole load of made up evolutionary psychology prevalent in GC circles about how women have evolved to spot men due to their danger, and that's why 'women can always tell' what physical sex someone is whereas men find it more difficult. I think a lot of people now calling themselves Gender Critical are actually gender conservatives who are critical of what they see as Gender Ideology, which more often than not is a series of straw men positions they've made up and ascribed to trans people en masse based on the odd tweet here and there.
This is starting to bleed over into attacking gender nonconformity like the John Lewis ad. You can see it in the attacks on drag queens and at least one fairly influential GC twitter person has started arguing that due to autogynephilia then any femininity in men should be seen as suspect and an attempt to act out a fetish in public. And on that note I think another element to the Gender Critical movement, which they have taken from some schools of radical feminism but which neatly slots into a conservative or religious position as well is their condemnation of sex work, kink and surrogacy which seems pretty embedded within GC circles now and is important to recognise because if they start having victories over trans people then that is likely to be where they will go next.
Gender critical aligned people on the left are going to have to wake up to the increasing enroachment by the far right into the movement sooner or later because you can pretty much guarantee that every fascist, alt righter, reactionary conservative and evangelical who is even vaguely strategically minded is looking at this now and working at how to find a way in and exploit this conflict.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
I’m very impressed by Shon Faye here:
Manages to address the issue with constructive wisdom
Manages to address the issue with constructive wisdom
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The term is "accessible toilet". A "disabled toilet" is a broken toilet, you twat.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The term is "accessible toilet". A "disabled toilet" is a broken toilet, you twat.
Reno
The In Kraut
English isn’t my first language and I translated from German as I live in Germany but thanks for the insult !
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
Don’t worry about it, first I’ve heard it called that too. Makes sense though, thinking on it.
maomao
普費斯
It could be disabled with a child safety lock so not necessarily broken. /pedant
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
No problem.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Bit harsh, but thanks for the correction.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Wiedersehen.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
In my experience they get called disabled toilets over 95% of the time, though I’d agree that it’s not the best wording. Don’t worry about it - this conversation could easily happen a hundred times on another website in English without the point ever being raised.
My workplace. as mentioned earlier, has gone for “gender neutral toilet”. Which, in English, all toilets are, so that doesn’t help matters.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
As a bona fide, blue-badge-carrying disabled person myself, I pretty much always refer to them as “the disabled toilets” or “the disableds” and not sure what I should find offensive.
On a tangential note, calling them “accessible toilets” seems unhelpfully ambiguous if, as in this very discussion, “accessible” might mean “able to be used” - as it tends to do. The word “accessible” doesn’t specify, or even necessarily suggest “accessible by people with disabilities”, and so is a significantly less useful term.
On a tangential note, calling them “accessible toilets” seems unhelpfully ambiguous if, as in this very discussion, “accessible” might mean “able to be used” - as it tends to do. The word “accessible” doesn’t specify, or even necessarily suggest “accessible by people with disabilities”, and so is a significantly less useful term.
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