Is this woman a transphobe?

[frogwoman]

Not surprising, there have always been a number of trans inclusive women on these threads, the dudes always subtly doubling down on what a minority were saying always made it seem like there were none.

Terfy men: We must stop women being silenced!

Women: something trans supportive

Terfy men: no not like that

 

[hitmouse]

I guess so, in the sense of a more appropriate approach taking account different levels of analysis as described in that link. I have more trouble with the "sex is not a binary" statement as an unqualified claim, just as I have problems with terms like "born in the wrong body", which I see as relating matters of personal self-understanding and communicating that sense, though in some cases they are conflated with something more empirical. Even before people were living large parts of their existence on a digital plane (especially younger people, who can flit between avatars for different social situations and locations online), this was an especially easy metaphor to grasp, but while it comes with immediate resonance, it's about about as accurate as the "born this way" slogan as used by gay people, which had a lot of traction but is past its sell-by date both scientifically and socially (notably, few people care about the scientific when it comes to gay people - a sign of greater acceptance). Likewise, for me, twaw wasn't the best slogan because it was too much of a direct challenge and led to rabbit holes. As opposed to, say, BLM, which was a slogan which even many racists could agree to in principle, and so served to open up further discussion.

Did you read this one? Seems like it might be your sort of thing:

Falling star: Countering gender essentialism with sex essentialism

Red and Black Leeds on the limitations of both gender essentialism and sex essentialism as a way to understand gender expression and identity.

libcom.org

It’s easy to see why some explanations of trans people’s choices persist. The dominant narrative in society currently is that genders are a naturally occurring result of innate biological differences. It is assumed these probably came about through evolution, as sexist scientists retrospectively impose our current gender stereotypes on the past, in a Flintstones-style view of history, and conclude that male and female brains developed out of the “natural” roles that our reproductive organs are assumed to have landed us with. In fact gender is a far more recent human invention, but the oppression of women seemingly has to be justified somehow, whether by reference to God, science, or something else. This pop neuroscience can be used to give trans people legitimacy. If men and women really have man-brains and woman-brains, then it’s plausible we could have landed the wrong brain to go with our genitals somehow (or the wrong genitals to go with our brains, depending on your perspective). It seems easier to get a society already invested in gender essentialism to accept that we’ve just been put in the wrong box, than to get people to question everything they thought they knew about men and women. Arguing that the entire system is bullshit and needs to be torn down is a massive task and not going to get us any joy any time soon. It’s easy to see why some trans people prefer a narrative less threatening to the status quo, but this is not inherently part of being trans.

 

[smokedout]

Meanwhile it appears that "journalist" Andy Ngo who has a consistent record of boosting fascist groups like The Proud Boys is attending the "LGB Alliance" event in London without challenge from other delegates.

Interesting bunch of exhibitors for a conference to defend LGB people as well. Not one organisation supporting gay men or bisexuals, only two (maybe 3, don't know who Gilding the Lily are) supporting lesbians, Toby Young's crowd, Conservative Women and the awful Our Duty - who's founder has explicitly supported working with the far right against trans people and is campaigning for the staff at the Tavistock to be jailed.

 

[8ball]

An organisation called Our Duty gives me nausea prior to knowing anything about it whatsoever.
edit: though I'd have first thought them to be a poppy-shagging type outfit rather than this

 

[frogwoman]

My favourite part of the TRA spiel is following the obligatory chanting of the "trans women are women" mantra and being told to go suck their lady dicks, it always ends with someone trying to get us sacked.

a thing that definitely happened

From that 'our duty' page

• Extending the age of "adolescence" in healthcare to 25 years old.

Nope no way that could go wrong! absolutely not!

 

[8ball]

a thing that definitely happened

From that 'our duty' page

• Extending the age of "adolescence" in healthcare to 25 years old.

Nope no way that could go wrong! absolutely not!

Well, for men at least you could argue that adolescence extends into the mid 20s (late 40s in my case), but I suspect some healthcare restriction motives may be involved...

 

[frogwoman]

Basically if self described lefties, feminists and progressives are still going along with terf shit in 2021 they have so comprehensively been played and I don't know how much clearer it can get. 'Our duty', 'war on woke', 'gender ideology' and campaigns to repeal the fucking GRA ffs

and frankly I don't know how to keep telling you that the interventions of the gender critical lot are neither wanted or needed by the majority of LGB people who know a right wing and not so thinly veiled homophobic campaign when we see one. Please stop using us as a shield for your bigotry.

 

[frogwoman]

Well, for men at least you could argue that adolescence extends into the mid 20s (late 40s in my case), but I suspect some healthcare restriction motives may be involved...

But but but, they're trying to protect women! the possibility of other things related to womens healthcare and sexual healthcare doesn't come into it despite a purely coincidental huge number of Christian fundamentalists being involved in these legal challenges

 

[smokedout]

a thing that definitely happened

From that 'our duty' page

• Extending the age of "adolescence" in healthcare to 25 years old.

Nope no way that could go wrong! absolutely not!

Within days of the first verdict in Keira Bell's case attempting to ban puberty blockers for under 16s GC groups like Transgender Trend announced they were going to start focussing their campaigns against trans healthcare on 17-24 year olds. It's not really about kids for a lot of them, it's about banning trans healthcare, kids are just the obvious place to start.

 

[Epona]

Basically if self described lefties, feminists and progressives are still going along with terf shit in 2021 they have so comprehensively been played and I don't know how much clearer it can get. 'Our duty', 'war on woke', 'gender ideology' and campaigns to repeal the fucking GRA ffs

and frankly I don't know how to keep telling you that the interventions of the gender critical lot are neither wanted or needed by the majority of LGB people who know a right wing and not so thinly veiled homophobic campaign when we see one. Please stop using us as a shield for your bigotry.

I think a lot of those that are claiming to be on the left and going along with this (terf shit), if you scratched the surface a bit a lot of them are right wing shitbags at heart, when it comes down to it (in my experience).

 

[19force8]

I think a lot of those that are claiming to be on the left and going along with this (terf shit), if you scratched the surface a bit a lot of them are right wing shitbags at heart, when it comes down to it (in my experience).

I wish!

I suppose a lot depends on how you view "the left", but terf-ism seems to have sunk its claws into all parts of it from the PLP/SNP/Green Party to anarchist icon* Helen Steel. We have to accept we have a problem before we can deal with it.

[* not being an anarchist I don't know if they have icons and if they do, whether or not Ms Steel qualifies]

Meanwhile, here's one of Katy's shit cartoons:

 

[Athos]

Historically, whilst not always agreeing with their positions, I've had some sympathy for women's concerns. Increasingly though, whilst I don't doubt the good faith of many of the individual women who express reservations about being required to accept a definition of 'woman' that they don't recognise, it's clear that a very large proportion of the organisations who would call themselves 'gender critical' are, at best, willing to stand alongside fascists and religious fundamentalists, and, at worst, are simply a fig leaf for naked bigotry.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I honestly don't understand why obvious bigots like coop and Dylan's are even tolerated on these boards. If it was anyone other than transwomen they'd have been booted off years ago. They're responsible for valued and long term trans posters being made to feel so uncomfortable they don't come on here any more.

And I think we're to blame too for tolerating it for so long. Everyone needs to have a good look at themselves me included.

 

[Rob Ray]

I honestly don't understand why obvious bigots like coop and Dylan's are even tolerated on these boards. If it was anyone other than transwomen they'd have been booted off years ago. They're responsible for valued and long term trans posters being made to feel so uncomfortable they don't come on here any more.

And I think we're to blame too for tolerating it for so long. Everyone needs to have a good look at themselves me included.

Not just trans people, I stopped posting here after one too many rounds of it.

 

[frogwoman]

Within days of the first verdict in Keira Bell's case attempting to ban puberty blockers for under 16s GC groups like Transgender Trend announced they were going to start focussing their campaigns against trans healthcare on 17-24 year olds. It's not really about kids for a lot of them, it's about banning trans healthcare, kids are just the obvious place to start.

Keira Bell is an anti vaxxer as well so, there's that.

absolute suckers.

 

[frogwoman]

Not just trans people, I stopped posting here after one too many rounds of it.

I'm still feeling pissed about pointing the links out between terf shit and the far right a couple years ago with details and sources to back it up etc and getting accused of smearing people with guilt by association tactics, identity twitter politics, ignoring peoples legitimate fears etc

 

[SpineyNorman]

The idea that the bigots aren't doing identity politics is fucking ridiculous too. If your politics involve policing the boundaries of an identity like Dylans and Edie have been doing recently on this thread guess what that says about your politics? And saying you won't listen to transwomen because they're not really women, what do you recon that is?

Bigots and their useful idiots.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

The idea that the bigots aren't doing identity politics is fucking ridiculous too. If your politics involve policing the boundaries of an identity like Dylans and Edie have been doing recently on this thread guess what that says about your politics? And saying you won't listen to transwomen because they're not really women, what do you recon that is?

Bigots and their useful idiots.

I've never seen anything more flat out idpol than folk screaming about entrance to the female class. Although it did bring us the very amusing spectacle of male trots using the phrase "women's voices" a lot, some light relief indeed.


ETA: Well a certain kind of trot, I don't want to shit on all of them, some of them are sound ha

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Basically if self described lefties, feminists and progressives are still going along with terf shit in 2021 they have so comprehensively been played and I don't know how much clearer it can get. 'Our duty', 'war on woke', 'gender ideology' and campaigns to repeal the fucking GRA ffs

and frankly I don't know how to keep telling you that the interventions of the gender critical lot are neither wanted or needed by the majority of LGB people who know a right wing and not so thinly veiled homophobic campaign when we see one. Please stop using us as a shield for your bigotry.

You would think listening to some that the reason we can't stomach the LGB alliance is because the PRIDE CENTRAL COMMITTEE ORDERED US TO QUEER GENDER!

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I honestly don't understand why obvious bigots like coop and Dylan's are even tolerated on these boards. If it was anyone other than transwomen they'd have been booted off years ago. They're responsible for valued and long term trans posters being made to feel so uncomfortable they don't come on here any more.

And I think we're to blame too for tolerating it for so long. Everyone needs to have a good look at themselves me included.

This.

 

[frogwoman]

You would think listening to some that the reason we can't stomach the LGB alliance is because the PRIDE CENTRAL COMMITTEE ORDERED US TO QUEER GENDER!

Protocols of the elders of Brighton

 

[hitmouse]

I mean, trying my best to be a boring centrist about it, I suppose it's worth making a clear distinction between when we're discussing stuff that u75 posters have said (or supported) and discussing stuff that's taking place off u75? Like, my reaction whenever someone brings up some kids with a sign saying "suck my dick" or whatever is a bit like "so what, no-one on this thread is defending or supporting that so what relevance does it have?", so similarly I can kind of see why people on the more GC side of the argument would kind of go "fuck off, I've never accepted money from the Alliance Defending Freedom/praised Tommy Robinson/spoken at a Heritage Foundation panel/gone on Tucker Carlson/etc, so why are you bringing it up here?"
And to be clear, like I don't think those things are the same, I think that Richard Spencer's journal Radix republishing stuff about "the TERF to dissident right pipeline" or gender criticals submitting a document to the UN that's co-signed by the Heritage Foundation is politically important and significant in a way that some daft kids with a shitty sign, or indeed mainstream neoliberal groups funding mainstream neoliberal pro-LGBT advocacy, isn't. Dunno how to square this one, really.

 

[Sue]

Also I'm really not trying to stir things up but am still unclear about what people on here mean when they use the terms 'TERF' and 'gender critical' as they seem to mean different things to different people. (IIRC, I did ask this ages ago and there didn't seem to be a clear view/agreement on what these terms mean which makes any kind of debate using them tricky. )

I mean, on the face of it being critical of gender and the stereotypes and expectations and perceptions that go with it seems like a good thing.

And surely challenging those stereotype and expectations and perceptions should be something both trans and non-trans people can agree on? I mean if we're saying a 'woman can be like THIS and THIS and THIS and can do THAT and THAT and THAT' that's surely much better for everyone involved than saying 'a woman is like THIS and can do THAT.'

But people here seem to see it as a very negative thing. So I'm obviously really misunderstanding what it means..?

 

[frogwoman]

Difference between being 'gender critical' in a political sense, as in supporting the movement termed 'gender critical feminism' by it's supporters, and being critical of gender tho

Kind of like the difference between supporting democracy in Korea and supporting the DPRK

 

[hitmouse]

Also I'm really not trying to stir things up but am still unclear about what people on here mean when they use the terms 'TERF' and 'gender critical' as they seem to mean different things to different people. (IIRC, I did ask this ages ago and there didn't seem to be a clear view/agreement on what these terms mean which makes any kind of debate using them tricky. )

I mean, on the face of it being critical of gender and the stereotypes and expectations and perceptions that go with it seems like a good thing.

And surely challenging those stereotype and expectations and perceptions should be something both trans and non-trans people can agree on? I mean if we're saying a 'woman can be like THIS and THIS and THIS and can do THAT and THAT and THAT' that's surely much better for everyone involved than saying 'a woman is like THIS and can do THAT.'

But people here seem to see it as a very negative thing. So I'm obviously really misunderstanding what it means..?

Yeah, I would usually tend to use it in quotation marks or implied quotation marks, I suppose I'm mostly just using it to refer to people who would use the term to describe themselves? Basically people usually tend to not like being called TERFs or anti-trans or whatever so I'm willing to use their preferred terminology, but yeah, I definitely agree that you can, and should, be critical of gender, without signing up to what the contemporary Gender Critical movement is? I suppose a bit like the difference between being a communist and being a Communist, perhaps?
edit: oh snap

 

[Sue]

Difference between being 'gender critical' in a political sense, as in supporting the movement termed 'gender critical feminism' by it's supporters, and being critical of gender tho

Kind of like the difference between supporting democracy in Korea and supporting the DPRK

Okay, I'd find it really helpful if you (not just frogwoman, anyone helpful enough to offer their thoughts!) could explicitly define the terms?

What does being 'gender critical in a political sense' mean?

What is 'gender critical feminism'?

And if I'm a feminist who's critical of gender is that different/perceived to be different than being a gender-critical feminist? (Sorry if this is really dim, I am trying to understand! )

ETA And are feminists in general not critical of gender?

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

How do you know who I assume is in opposition to me? I am critical of gender, so are probably most trans people - and in fact for a long time I was reluctant to name the anti-trans movement Gender Critical on those grounds. But that's what they call themselves and sorry I'm not going to say Gender Critical except teuchter and anyone who is critical of gender but supports trans rights because that would be fucking ridiculous. If someone articulates they support trans rights they are clearly not in opposition to me. If someone describes themselves as gender critical but supportive of trans rights they are not in opposition to me. If someone describes themselves as gender critical and starts ranting on about mutilated bodies or trans people erasing gays and lesbians then they probably are in opposition to me. I don't actually find it very difficult, I don't really understand why you do or what purpose it serves to try and deny trans people from being able to name the movement that is opposed to us. In fact I think it is you who is making assumptions about what I believe or how I might categorise someone's views.

Sue, here's one post explaining some differences.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

That's not what people are actually saying, though, is it? Like this is what smokedout said:

I don't think that stuff is just reducible to "finding a way to deal with dysphoria that involved downplaying gender rather than essentialising it". I don't care how people deal with their dysphoria, I wish them good luck in whatever works best for them, but that's not the same as working politically with Posie Parker and the Christian right (if those even count as two separate things).

Depends how you define gender critical, innit. Red and Black Leeds, Gender Nihilism, bleedin' Baedan and all that lot are all clearly critical of gender. But if you define it as "stuff floating around in the LGB Alliance/Women's Place/Posie Parker/Hands Across The Aisle/Women’s Liberation Front swamp", then no, I'm not sure there can be.

This post from Hitmouse also quite helpful
(I dunno if you can click on it to see what the replies are to, otherwise it won't read well

Eta if you click on "hitmouse" the post is a lot clearer

 

[frogwoman]

Okay, I'd find it really helpful if you (not just frogwoman, anyone helpful enough to offer their thoughts!) could explicitly define the terms?

What does being 'gender critical in a political sense' mean?

What is 'gender critical feminism'?

And if I'm a feminist who's critical of gender is that different/perceived to be different than being a gender-critical feminist? (Sorry if this is really dim, I am trying to understand! )

I'm not greatest expert on these things as I'm not trans tbh but my understanding is:

'Terfs' = my understanding of it was 'terfs' used to mean old radical 'second wave' feminists from the 70s who had reactionary positions on trans issues and often typical radical feminist views on stuff like sex work, surrogacy, etc which includes advocating the use of the 'Nordic Model' for sex work etc. A lot of these were Lesbian Separatists ie wanting to live without men etc. Think of people like Sheila Jeffrey's and Cathy Brennan and the like

As some radical feminists become more trans inclusive (while accepting the other positions are still controversial) the word become popularised as meaning a transphobic feminist,

But now the word just gets used to mean any transphobe not necessarily a feminist or a woman (Linehan is described as a terf and he is not a feminist in any meaningful sense)

Gender Critical feminism is related to but different to the classical terfs in the strict sense, not only including radical feminists but it also people who are overly focused on trans people as opposed to other feminist issues, so like LGB alliance, and indeed those who haven't been involved in feminist causes at all up to now. Some of the work Mallory Moore has done on trans safety network and a few others go in depth into this ideology, and smokedout posts are really worth reading

 

[frogwoman]

?

And if I'm a feminist who's critical of gender is that different/perceived to be different than being a gender-critical feminist? (Sorry if this is really dim, I am trying to understand! )

ETA And are feminists in general not critical of gender?

Of course it is different, most feminists including trans feminists are critical of gender ime but that is very different to being 'Gender Critical'