Is this woman a transphobe?

[Serene]

Love it when a straight bloke tells me how to be a feminist.

I remember Piers Morgan telling a Woman that she was doing her Feminism wrong

 

[Fozzie Bear]

This lad’s out of his taxon if you ask me.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

This lad’s out of his taxon if you ask me.

I'm using this all week

 

[frogwoman]

The ' out of your taxon' thing just reminds me of someone ranting 'ITS ADAM AND EVE NOT ADAM AND STEVE' lol

 

[elbows]

One of the more interesting parts of the nihilism piece that was brought up the other day was the reminder that taxonomy and classification efforts were used by colonial powers to impose their narrow views on other cultures, to justify and enable oppression, and all sorts of other stuff that I'm not at all well read enough to actually be attempting to describe properly in this post.

As someone who fancies themselves to be a fan of 'science' etc, some of that shit is bound to be baked into how I see the world and what I might consider to be objective reality. I doubt I can utterly escape that mindset, but I can resort to things like mocking our notions of 'biological reality' given how crude and limited our understanding of matters on that level, 'proven' via scientific methods, actually are at this point. Its not a very rich or impressive version of reality, and adding more layers of classification doesnt really begin to escape the trap, only to excuse it. Or make it seem more sophisticated, a more convincing lie, a new edition of the rigid factoids that may claim to have gotten closer to 'the truth' by being more nuanced, but that can never escape the perils of the narrow and controlled because those are not side effects but rather its core function. A tinpot template for the turgid.

 

[Serene]

I remember Piers Morgan telling a Woman that she was doing her Feminism wrong

I wasnt being disparaging LGBT people there. I was disparaging Piers Morgan. I am very much pro LGBT. I was laughing because of the audacity and ignorance of the bigoted imbecile.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I wasnt being disparaging about LGBT people there. I was disparaging Piers Morgan. I am very much pro LGBT.

I don't think anyone would think otherwise tbh. Surely if there's one thing we can all come together and agree on, whatever our other differences, it's that Piers Morgan is a massive twat?

 

[8ball]

One of the more interesting parts of the nihilism piece that was brought up the other day was the reminder that taxonomy and classification efforts were used by colonial powers to impose their narrow views on other cultures, to justify and enable oppression, and all sorts of other stuff that I'm not at all well read enough to actually be attempting to describe properly in this post.

As someone who fancies themselves to be a fan of 'science' etc, some of that shit is bound to be baked into how I see the world and what I might consider to be objective reality. I doubt I can utterly escape that mindset, but I can resort to things like mocking our notions of 'biological reality' given how crude and limited our understanding of matters on that level, 'proven' via scientific methods, actually are at this point. Its not a very rich or impressive version of reality, and adding more layers of classification doesnt really begin to escape the trap, only to excuse it. Or make it seem more sophisticated, a more convincing lie, a new edition of the rigid factoids that may claim to have gotten closer to 'the truth' by being more nuanced, but that can never escape the perils of the narrow and controlled because those are not side effects but rather its core function. A tinpot template for the turgid.

I like this post. Classification is something humans do from very early in life (beginning right from the notion of self vs. non-self), and keeping in mind that the territory is something far more complicated and nuanced than our maps is very important. Being a biologist by training, I find it hard to move from ideas relating to gametes and evolution when thinking of the terms 'male' and 'female', for example (no one here was born as a result of any medium-sized gametes - there was (by cell standards) a quite small one and a very large one in every case, as is the case for every human and every mammal ever). Also, I see gender as distinct from sex due to largely political/philosophical reasons.

However, it occurred to me that when thinking of adopted children I know, I always use the terms mother, father and child just as I would with biological relationships. It's just a kind of addendum to the more usual meaning of those words, capturing the most essential and relevant parts of the core meaning of those words.

Was also thinking of a conversation I was listening to about a lesbian couple, one of whom was having a surrogate pregnancy the other of whom was the egg donor. Both are surely the 'mother' in a kind of biological sense, but their needs will differ when it comes to work maternity cover and practical / administrative stuff of that kind and we need ways of talking about such relationships, which made me see more sense to terms like "birthing parent".

Also, a friend of mine always refers to her Dad (who is a trans woman) as "Dad" (her Dad introduced herself as "Father Of The Bride" at her wedding and did the walk down the aisle stuff etc. In her FoTB speech she acknowledged that this might be confusing to some at the wedding. People will have different ways of slicing this up depending on things how old a child was when they transitioned etc.

Adding /refining / adapting models then allowing things to evolve seems a lot easier to work through than either becoming entrenched in their eternal immutability, or expecting that they can be thrown out altogether in short order.

/cis man navel-gazing

 

[iona]

perverted trans waving their genitals about in front of children and destroying society

I'm totally confused now tbh. Next time I'm on the bus and someone tells their kid "mind out of that man's way" am I meant to whip my vagina out and demand to be called a woman or not?

 

[rutabowa]

I like this post. Classification is something humans do from very early in life (beginning right from the notion of self vs. non-self), and keeping in mind that the territory is something far more complicated and nuanced than our maps is very important. Being a biologist by training, I find it hard to move from ideas relating to gametes and evolution when thinking of the terms 'male' and 'female', for example (no one here was born as a result of any medium-sized gametes - there was (by cell standards) a quite small one and a very large one in every case, as is the case for every human and every mammal ever). Also, I see gender as distinct from sex due to largely political/philosophical reasons.

However, it occurred to me that when thinking of adopted children I know, I always use the terms mother, father and child just as I would with biological relationships. It's just a kind of addendum to the more usual meaning of those words, capturing the most essential and relevant parts of the core meaning of those words.

Was also thinking of a conversation I was listening to about a lesbian couple, one of whom was having a surrogate pregnancy the other of whom was the egg donor. Both are surely the 'mother' in a kind of biological sense, but their needs will differ when it comes to work maternity cover and practical / administrative stuff of that kind and we need ways of talking about such relationships, which made me see more sense to terms like "birthing parent".

Adding /refining models then allowing things to evolve seems a lot easier to work through than either becoming entrenched in their eternal immutability, or expecting that they can be thrown out altogether in short order.

/cis man navel-gazing

Re: being a biologist, thought this article about reworking the school biology curriculum to be gender inclusive might be interesting (it is not my area so I dunno! But it is a current project in a lot of schools) Gender-Inclusive Biology: A framework in action

 

[dylans]

This is my favourite part of the gender critical man spiel. Following the angry rants about perverted trans waving their genitals about in front of children and destroying society and how blue haired queer teenagers are really the oppressor class it always ends with why not just be a feminine man eh eh, why not just be a man in a dress eh, why not come and use the male fucking toilets with me eh eh, what's wrong, are you scared pervert?

My favourite part of the TRA spiel is following the obligatory chanting of the "trans women are women" mantra and being told to go suck their lady dicks, it always ends with someone trying to get us sacked.

 

[belboid]

'us'? Interesting use of the word.

 

[8ball]

Re: being a biologist, thought this article about reworking the school biology curriculum to be gender inclusive might be interesting (it is not my area so I dunno! But it is a current project in a lot of schools) Gender-Inclusive Biology: A framework in action

A lot of this looks constructive to me (I can't see what argument even homophobes would come up with to biology classes acknowledging same-sex coupling and child-rearing in animals, for example), though in terms of their main thrust <building in levels of nuance at every stage>, my feeling is that science teaching is full of oversimplifications that may need some amendment or refinement later, and that maybe it's better to be open to students about the limitations of what you are teaching - we do things in stages for a reason and teaching general principles before teaching nuances is common to many (all?) areas of education.

Then the stuff relating to social relations can be kept to a separate subject - I don't personally think that discussion of, say, the difficulties of binary sex categories for intersex athletes is something to be restricted to biology class. The biological elements are understandable enough for this to be a discussion for everyone.

I still don't like the term "sex assigned at birth" though (one of their recommended terms). Always makes it sound like it was picked from a randomised list by a nurse.

 

[frogwoman]

My favourite part of the TRA spiel is following the obligatory chanting of the "trans women are women" mantra and being told to go suck their lady dicks, it always ends with someone trying to get us sacked.

did a trans activist try to get you sacked?

 

[seeformiles]

The ' out of your taxon' thing just reminds me of someone ranting 'ITS ADAM AND EVE NOT ADAM AND STEVE' lol

I prefer the variation “…NOT MADAM AND EVE!”

 

[rutabowa]

A lot of this looks constructive to me (I can't see what argument even homophobes would come up with to biology classes acknowledging same-sex coupling and child-rearing in animals, for example), though in terms of their main thrust <building in levels of nuance at every stage>, my feeling is that science teaching is full of oversimplifications that may need some amendment or refinement later, and that maybe it's better to be open to students about the limitations of what you are teaching - we do things in stages for a reason and teaching general principles before teaching nuances is common to many (all?) areas of education.

Then the stuff relating to social relations can be kept to a separate subject - I don't personally think that discussion of, say, the difficulties of binary sex categories for intersex athletes is something to be restricted to biology class. The biological elements are understandable enough for this to be a discussion for everyone.

I still don't like the term "sex assigned at birth" though (one of their recommended terms). Always makes it sound like it was picked from a randomised list by a nur

It is a work in progress for sure. I found it particularly interesting tho as one common anti trans argument is that it "goes against scientific biological reality" but in fact it seems like actual scientific biological reality is quite a lot more complex than the simple binaries most of us learnt in school.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

My favourite part of the TRA spiel is following the obligatory chanting of the "trans women are women" mantra and being told to go suck their lady dicks, it always ends with someone trying to get us sacked.

None of this happened here, Smokedout was referring to something YOU actually said.

 

[NoXion]

One of the more interesting parts of the nihilism piece that was brought up the other day was the reminder that taxonomy and classification efforts were used by colonial powers to impose their narrow views on other cultures, to justify and enable oppression, and all sorts of other stuff that I'm not at all well read enough to actually be attempting to describe properly in this post.

As someone who fancies themselves to be a fan of 'science' etc, some of that shit is bound to be baked into how I see the world and what I might consider to be objective reality. I doubt I can utterly escape that mindset, but I can resort to things like mocking our notions of 'biological reality' given how crude and limited our understanding of matters on that level, 'proven' via scientific methods, actually are at this point. Its not a very rich or impressive version of reality, and adding more layers of classification doesnt really begin to escape the trap, only to excuse it. Or make it seem more sophisticated, a more convincing lie, a new edition of the rigid factoids that may claim to have gotten closer to 'the truth' by being more nuanced, but that can never escape the perils of the narrow and controlled because those are not side effects but rather its core function. A tinpot template for the turgid.

Or you could just keep in mind that classifying something doesn't actually justify anything. Description vs prescription.

 

[8ball]

It is a work in progress for sure. I found it particularly interesting tho as one common anti trans argument is that it "goes against scientific biological reality" but in fact it seems like actual scientific biological reality is quite a lot more complex than the simple binaries most of us learnt in school.

I guess so, in the sense of a more appropriate approach taking account different levels of analysis as described in that link. I have more trouble with the "sex is not a binary" statement as an unqualified claim, just as I have problems with terms like "born in the wrong body", which I see as relating matters of personal self-understanding and communicating that sense, though in some cases they are conflated with something more empirical. Even before people were living large parts of their existence on a digital plane (especially younger people, who can flit between avatars for different social situations and locations online), this was an especially easy metaphor to grasp, but while it comes with immediate resonance, it's about about as accurate as the "born this way" slogan as used by gay people, which had a lot of traction but is past its sell-by date both scientifically and socially (notably, few people care about the scientific when it comes to gay people - a sign of greater acceptance). Likewise, for me, twaw wasn't the best slogan because it was too much of a direct challenge and led to rabbit holes. As opposed to, say, BLM, which was a slogan which even many racists could agree to in principle, and so served to open up further discussion.

Imo biology teaching has tended to privilege the evolutionary / reproductive angle (as opposed to, say, hormonal or embryological), and also emphasised aspects relevant to the kind of society it was trying to reproduce (hence the thing about same-sex coupling in animals etc. not being mentioned, or, say, that some bacteria that have a lot more than two sexes in a reproductive sense).

Easy for this to then calcify into something akin to heteronormative enforcement, but I don't think that was deliberate, more a case of reflecting society, with any updates to curricula always being scrutinised by Governments of the time.

 

[rutabowa]

I guess it is like another way of "decolonising the curriculum"... any conversations that reminds us that school curricula are constructions that replicate and reinforce existing social/political structures, rather than transparent vessels of objective truth, must be a good thing I guess. And hopefully reasons for optimism, as kids currently going through school might be (a bit, gradually) more aware of the constructs.

 

[dylans]

None of this happened here, Smokedout was referring to something YOU actually said.

Nah, fuck it, lifes' too short for this bullshit.

 

[8ball]

I guess it is like another way of "decolonising the curriculum"... any conversations that reminds us that school curricula are constructions that replicate and reinforce existing social/political structures, rather than transparent vessels of objective truth, must be a good thing I guess. And hopefully reasons for optimism, as kids currently going through school might be (a bit, gradually) more aware of the constructs.

Another term I hate!

Mostly because the curriculum was never "colonised", it was just made that way.
The terms are so leaden, and the slogans so lacklustre - why is there nothing on a par with "Property is theft!" or "No Gods, No Masters!", or "ACAB"?

I'm like an old man shaking his fist at a cloud sometimes.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Meanwhile it appears that "journalist" Andy Ngo who has a consistent record of boosting fascist groups like The Proud Boys is attending the "LGB Alliance" event in London without challenge from other delegates.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I thought, given that there is a tendency to post The Very Worst In Signs on this thread, that I would share this one that I enjoyed on twitter.

 

[belboid]

Meanwhile it appears that "journalist" Andy Ngo who has a consistent record of boosting fascist groups like The Proud Boys is attending the "LGB Alliance" event in London without challenge from other delegates.

not even from their trustee and co-founder Kathleen Stock? I'm shocked.

 

[rutabowa]

Another term I hate!

Mostly because the curriculum was never "colonised", it was just made that way.
The terms are so leaden, and the slogans so lacklustre - why is there nothing on a par with "Property is theft!" or "No Gods, No Masters!", or "ACAB"?

I'm like an old man shaking his fist at a cloud sometimes.

It is not a lack lustre activity for the kids involved at the sharp end of it! And it is much more achievable (ie little by little in real life) than slogans would be.

The phrase "just made that way" has a lot of problems with it when you are talking about something that is an entirely human creation, and also one that has been imposed top down. But i am sure you get that ha.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Jesus fucking Christ

Good to see you posting mate!

 

[8ball]

It is not a lack lustre activity for the kids involved at the sharp end of it! And it is much more achievable (ie little by little in real life) than slogans would be.

The phrase "just made that way" has a lot of problems with it when you are talking about something that is an entirely human creation, and also one that has been imposed top down. But i am sure you get that ha.

Not sure I understand your first para. But yeah, it was made that way with certain unstated purposes. I mean that no one came along and colonised it.

Would make sense as "de-colon-ise the curriculum". Because colons tend to be full of shit.

 

[rutabowa]

Not sure I understand your first para. But yeah, it was made that way with certain unstated purposes. I mean that no one came along and colonised it.

Would make sense as "de-colon-ise the curriculum". Because colons tend to be full of shit.

First para I just meant: the movement towards/conversation around "decolonising the curriculum" is not just an intellectual exercise, or a slogan: it is actively making the education system a lot more inclusive to those who have historically been overlooked/failed by it... and that is actually very important to a lot of students, they are involved in it. And that is happening right now, to students who are currently in the education system, so it is having concrete benefits right now as well as for the future.

I guess the point of "decolonise" is that the current/past curriculum is inextricably linked to the UK's colonial past. Not that it was literally colonised at any point. As an exhortation I think it is pretty clear what it means tho so it works.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Men are men and women are women because that characteristic is defined by our biology. Am I a bigot if I state that the only vertebrates which change sex during their lifetime are some species of teleost fish? or if I state that the uterus is a feature of the female anatomy of all species of placental and marsupial mammals?

Can I identify out of my taxon?

As for knowing our place, it seems to me that it is trans activists who insist a certain identity makes one a man or woman who are reinforcing gender stereotypes. Why does identifying with the features and characteristics associated with the opposite sex turn that person into the opposite sex? Why can't men or women reject the gender stereotypes of what a man and woman means without becoming the other? It seems to me that it is much more radical to state that trans women and trans men are men and women who are gender non conforming within their sex and who reject the gender assumptions and stereotypes associated with that sex. "Trans women are men" is not a statement of bigotry, on the contrary, it a rejection of toxic male stereotypes that says men must behave a certain way in order to be men.

I must say I'm shocked to see this weirdo taking the cranky bigot position.