Is this woman a transphobe?

[co-op]

I think the problem is partly that the left has so few tools for dealing with conflicts between oppressed groups - it basically has “solidarity in the face of a common oppressor”,

Which, in practise historically hasn't seemed to boil down to anything except telling one group to sit down and shut up and wait until later/after the revolution.

My point on this thread is - we seem to have moved beyond that (rubbish as it was) to destroying one group absolutely and totally by alleging that they are only motivated by hate, phobia etc. and there is no discussion without those allegations continually being made.

 

[iveivan]

How does the fact that there are trans people change the fact or the impression that women are oppressed?

 

[Knotted]

Does a persons biological reality (Or biological reality per se) ever need to be explained to them? Can I just rock up to the doctors and get the diagnoses and treatment I identify with? Is it always condescending for a doctor to dispute mine (or anyone else’s) perception of biological reality?

The whole biological sex question relates to intersex people. I don't see it having anything to do with transgender people. If someone is taking hormones to alter their gender, they are going to be more acutely aware of their biology than most people, not less aware.

 

[Sue]

edited cos. legal stuff

You might want to edit that for legal reasons.

 

[co-op]

And these "feminists" who think that biological sex conditions the oppression of women and forms the very definition of "woman" are actively trying to exclude female born people. It's a kick out all the trannies position.

This is absolutely wrong too. For example GC feminists are opposed to transwomen being allowed to compete in women's sports but are not against transmen being allowed to do so.

 

[8ball]

How does the fact that there are trans people change the fact or the impression that women are oppressed?

Please can you quote the point you are querying? By itself it seems nonsensical.

 

[co-op]

You might want to edit that for legal reasons.

Good spot, and your quoting of it?

 

[belboid]

This is absolutely wrong too. For example GC feminists are opposed to transwomen being allowed to compete in women's sports but are not against transmen being allowed to do so.

Trans men can participate in women’s sports?? That would be a logical position I suppose

 

[Knotted]

Eh?

The classic (trans exclusionary) radical feminist position is that trans men ie. female at birth, are still women and they still face the oppression that women face and that feminists should fight for their rights. Attacking a clinic for being inclusive of such female born people, is anti-feminist by this reckoning.

 

[Shechemite]

My point on this thread is - we seem to have moved beyond that (rubbish as it was) to destroying one group absolutely and totally by alleging that they are only motivated by hate, phobia etc. and there is no discussion without those allegations continually being made.

It’s not exactly consistent either. Hence the hyper-vigilance against ‘misgendering’, but the permissiveness (even defence of) geopolitical conspiracism (with the anti-Arab, anti-Muslim and antisemitic garbage that comes with it).

Trans and/or non-Binary

People from the Trans and/or non-Binary community regularly experience deliberate or unintended microaggressions and microinsults

www.ed.ac.uk

The UK professor, a fake Russian spy and the undercover Syria sting

Ex-Observer journalist tells of role in trap to expose disinformation tactics of defenders of the Assad regime

www.theguardian.com

 

[co-op]

Trans men can participate in women’s sports?? That would be a logical position I suppose

At elite level there will be issues with testosterone use etc, at normal level it's not an issue that anyone has raised as far as I have seen, in fact I think there is a fairly senior level transman playing (without T) in the women's soccer league in the US.

 

[Sue]

Good spot, and your quoting of it?

Edited

Although I do take belboid's point. Voting Tory and Alba from a feminist point of view seems...very bizarre indeed.

 

[iveivan]

Please can you quote the point you are querying? By itself it seems nonsensical.

“I believe in biological reality and do not subscribe to the notion of gender identity especially when it damages women and girls - the oppression of women is based on biology not gender identity and this movement is seeking to remove not only every protection women and girls have but to redefine what it means to be female.”

 

[co-op]

The classic (trans exclusionary) radical feminist position is that trans men ie. female at birth, are still women and they still face the oppression that women face and that feminists should fight for their rights. Attacking a clinic for being inclusive of such female born people, is anti-feminist by this reckoning.

It would be yes, the objection is to the removal of the word "woman".

 

[co-op]

Edited

Although I do take belboid's point. Voting Tory and Alba from a feminist point of view seems...very bizarre indeed.

It is absolutely fecking crazy, I am shaking my head as I type.

 

[Knotted]

This is absolutely wrong too. For example GC feminists are opposed to transwomen being allowed to compete in women's sports but are not against transmen being allowed to do so.

No true Scotsman...

There is no organisation called the "GC feminist party" with a party line. Same incidentally with trans rights activists. Neither group is some monolith.

 

[Shechemite]

No true Scotsman...

There is no organisation called the "GC feminist party" with a party line. Same incidentally with trans rights activists. Neither group is some monolith.

Which GC feminists are opposed to trans men/gender dysphoric women being allowed to compete in women’s sports?

 

[co-op]

No true Scotsman...

There is no organisation called the "GC feminist party" with a party line. Same incidentally with trans rights activists. Neither group is some monolith.

This is absolutely fair criticism & possibly one way out of this mess is to emphasise nuance not remove it.

 

[Knotted]

Which GC feminists are opposed to trans men/gender dysphoric women being allowed to compete in women’s sports?

Interesting question. I don't pay much attention to sport, but I think they usually don't compete with women, correct me if I'm wrong. They would surely have an (unfair?) advantage if they're taking hormones.

 

[Athos]

Why insist on one fixed definition for all times, places, and contexts?

Clearly, people mean different things when they say Caitlin Jenner is a 'woman', and when referring to a 'woman' in the context of a disgussion about gynae medicine.

It's clear there's no single definition on which everyone will agree, so keeping on flogging that dead horse as if it's the key to conundrum is a dead end.

Why not agree to disagree on what a woman is, and find common ground on things women have in common (whether or not they're trans)? And deal with specific difficult edge cases on the facts.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The problem is two fold I think. The first is left wing politics has increasingly focussed on individualism, to the point now that with ‘intersectionist’ politics we can be down to units of one. Far from promoting human rights, this has (counterintuitively and not intentionally) resulted in increased experiences of discrimination in the privileged West. And less commonality, less power, and actually, less identity.

The second is the ideological move away from family and traditional gender roles. Ironically this has also led to a loss of identity. No one is as sure of where they stand any more. This has been good and useful in some ways, but damaging in others. We have lost a connection to the old ways- identity, transitions (especially coming of age), shared beliefs. These things stick society together. The left has pulled the identity of the working class apart at the seams since the 60s now looks on in surprise as it weakens. (The right have taken the traditional approach of just reinstating wealth and power inequality of course).

Excellent. Spot on.

 

[Knotted]

This is absolutely fair criticism & possibly one way out of this mess is to emphasise nuance not remove it.

I don't want to be saying "don't talk about changing rooms and sprinting events" if you want to. But there is a definite clot of gender critical activists who are pushing a certain fear mongering ideology. And it's something that's perhaps flexible and has various degrees, but we need to recognise it. Some of it is about changing rooms and sprinting events but there's no need to pit women and transgender people against each other.

 

[hitmouse]

Why do you think the perception of being female leads to worse treatment?

Because of patriarchy, innit. But how does patriarchy function?

But this is a point that is not about the sex of the people involved but about the gender roles that were activated by "knowing" their sex (falsely in this case).

Precisely, yeah. I think that how you're treated has more to do with how people read your gender than with what your biological sex is.

I don't really know what kind of point you're trying to make here. Do you think there are gender critical feminists who would take issue with your point about differential treatment due to gendered social markers?

I think if they're consistent with their politics they probably should. Because if you accept it then a lot of the "gender critical" position starts to look a bit shaky.

That's got nothing to do with what defines a man/woman though has it, that's good old fashioned sexual prejudice.

But again, how do people know who to be sexist against and who to not be sexist against?

Trans men can participate in women’s sports?? That would be a logical position I suppose

I'm sure they must be very grateful to hear that.

It’s not exactly consistent either. Hence the hyper-vigilance against ‘misgendering’, but the permissiveness (even defence of) geopolitical conspiracism (with the anti-Arab, anti-Muslim and antisemitic garbage that comes with it).

Blimey, that's quite a leap. Where were you thinking of going next?

 

[Shechemite]

Interesting question. I don't pay much attention to sport, but I think they usually don't compete with women, correct me if I'm wrong. They would surely have an (unfair?) advantage if they're taking hormones.

what’s your no true Scotsman comment based on then?

 

[Shechemite]

Blimey, that's quite a leap. Where were you thinking of going next?

Nah, it’s a pattern on ‘the left’.

Safer spaces! (away from ‘hateful’ women and Jews)

 

[8ball]

Excellent. Spot on.

I agree it's a great post, but am having trouble with the "the left has increasingly focused on individualism" thing. Is that quite what happened, or was it the split between the left and the working class that led the left in the direction of intersections between minority subsets, gradually boiling the soup of class conflict into something very granular?

I'm sure someone out there has done the work on what happened and when...

 

[LDC]

.

 

[Knotted]

what’s your no true Scotsman comment based on then?

Co-op was explaining the GC feminist line, and I recognise it but I didn't think that individual GC feminists necessarily followed it. I think it's evolved since the 80's and also is fragmented in certain ways.

 

[Border Reiver]

what is ‘being trans’? Is it the experience of dysphoria, or the meaning that some attach to dysphoria?

Dysphoria is emotional reaction, not belief or kniwledge. Your belief/knowledge is separate from your emotional reaction to it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Interesting question. I don't pay much attention to sport, but I think they usually don't compete with women, correct me if I'm wrong. They would surely have an (unfair?) advantage if they're taking hormones.

This is largely correct, and at elite levels, a trans man taking hormones would fail a drugs test. Within my martial arts organisation, we had a bit of a struggle a couple of years ago to allow a trans man to compete in men's divisions at certain competitions. There was a fair bit of resistance, including warnings that people 'weren't going to hold back'. But it got through in the end - as it was legally required to, not that it went to lawyers.

Generally speaking, in most contexts, trans people competing in men's sports isn't such an issue as the men's divisions are effectively the 'open' divisions. There is no need to produce an agreed definition of 'man' for them. If anything, problems can arise when women want to play with men to get better competition, something that gets complicated post-puberty in contact sports, but women have played cricket in men's teams at Australian Grade level (a pretty high level), for example.