Is this woman a transphobe?

[smokedout]

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Obviously. I avoid these threads usually, think I'll go back to that.

Well it's kind of the point isn't it? Humans usually have two legs but not all humans have two legs. Humans usually for into one easily identifiable sex but not all humans fall into one easily indentifiable sex. Whether you call this diversity part of the natural human spectrum, or abnormal aberrations is really just a matter of personal choice. Neither can ever really be demonstrated to be 'true' which is why this argument never seems to stop.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So I have no sex as I am incapable of reproduction? You have defined reproductive sex but not "sex". Prepubescent children, post menopausal women, men post vasectomy, and eunuchs have no "sex"?

Sigh. I'm going to try not to get sucked into this, but co-op has made the point about the GC position, which is a consistent position - that oppression of one particular group comes about because of their reproductive role, the thing that can be precisely defined as a binary system. Everything else - the 'constructed' stuff, including including gender - springs from that.

 

[Thora]

I love the "I believe in biological reality". It's just so sly and transparent. Yeah, she probably got booted off twitter because the transes who control twitter think biology isn't a reality or something. That must be it.

Of course the implied point is that biological reality determines gender, which is exactly the idea feminists have always fought. The original terfs weren't idiots like this, they were radical critics of identity politics. This is just it's own identity politics and a particularly cranky one at that - all this blatant nonsense about female erasure. And it's also why these idiots are so willing to ally with social conservatives who are also very big on "biology determines gender" including of course gender roles.

The whole thing is just troll questions. Contrived, "I bet you can't answer this" stuff. She probably thinks that trans rights and women's rights are at fundamentally at odds and that sticking it the transes (sorry tra's) is a way of sticking it to the patriarchy or something.

It's a political formation that's fundamentally and obsessively about trying to limit the rights of a small vulnerable minority.

Isn't the implication that biological reality determines sex, and gender/roles/presentation is just a social construct You are male or female but you can dress, play with or behave as you like and liking princesses and kittens or cars and dinosaurs isn't biologically determined.

 

[co-op]

Can anybody imagine say, Julie Bindel, making a song and dance about "biological reality"? As much as I might disagree with her, I would recognise that she's not a "you are your bits" loon.

She says sex is real, gender is socially constructed. I'm not sure what you mean by "biological reality" but like anyone who thinks the gender critical makes sense she doesn't think that "you are your bits".

If you actually think that GC position is that "you are your bits" then you've got it the wrong way round.

 

[8ball]

Isn't the implication that biological reality determines sex, and gender/roles/presentation is just a social construct You are male or female but you can dress, play with or behave as you like and liking princesses and kittens or cars and dinosaurs isn't biologically determined.

Yeah, there is some very odd reasoning here. The argument from the “biological reality crowd” is that biological sex and gender are not the same thing as each other.

 

[Thora]

No. I am making the point that "sex" does not exist as a natural concept, but depends on human knowledge and belief (a construct) not a well defined scientific fact.

For instance people with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome would have, prior to modern human knowledge, been treated as female because of their overt morphology despite having a Y chromosome (the marker of chromosomal sex).

My cat can tell the difference between male cats and female cats and I'm pretty sure she doesn't depend on human knowledge and belief...

 

[Knotted]

Do you think there should be single sex wards in hospitals?

I haven't really thought about it. And it's beside the point. I appreciate that there are arguments to be had about single sex safe spaces etc., and it's probably best to be had among those whom it affects. There's a difference between women's concerns and the gender critical ideologues who try to exploit them.

Can anybody give me an interpretation of the point about "biological reality"? Or are you all just going to look the other way and pretend it was perhaps some point about antelopes?

 

[smokedout]

Anyway if only there was a long thread about this that we all agreed to restrict discussion on this subject to so that the people concerned (women and trans people) did not have to deal with this debate being rammed in their faces constantly. Usually on here sadly by cis men.

 

[LDC]

Well it's kind of the point isn't it? Humans usually have two legs but not all humans have two legs. Humans usually for into one easily identifiable sex but not all humans fall into one easily indentifiable sex. Whether you call this diversity part of the natural human spectrum, or abnormal aberrations is really just a matter of personal choice. Neither can ever really be demonstrated to be 'true' which is why this argument never seems to stop.

Surely that's some of the variety that gets grouped under intersex though, not trans?

 

[two sheds]

Isn't the implication that biological reality determines sex, and gender/roles/presentation is just a social construct You are male or female but you can dress, play with or behave as you like and liking princesses and kittens or cars and dinosaurs isn't biologically determined.

I think that's the first post on the thread that I actually understand

 

[co-op]

Anyway if only there was a long thread about this that we all agreed to restrict discussion on this subject to so that the people concerned (women and trans people) did not have to deal with this debate being rammed in their faces constantly. Usually on here sadly by cis men.

You can ignore the thread. I put the word transphobia in the title so that those fed up with this can do this.

 

[MickiQ]

trans identification (as opposed to trans rights) is one of the new 'religions' where both sides are stating their view is the absolute truth and that any disagreement with their position is the blackest of heresies with everybody claiming the mantle of oppression. It's a horrible subject for debate because there is no real common ground.
No this woman isn't a transphobe or a TERF, she isn't calling for them to be persecuted, she is just stating her belief that having a cock makes you a man and having a fanny makes you a woman and no matter how hard you believe otherwise you can't acttually change that. I thnk the vast majority of the population (and at the risk of being also labelled a transphobe that includes me) ascribe to that view but the majority of the population (definitely including me) also subscribe to the view that transgenders should be allowed to live out their lives in peace free from persecution and ridicule.
There does seem to be an element amongst the trans rights movement that seems to be taking the view that shouting down anyone who suggests their views are not the absolute truth will make them the absolute truth, which is undoubtably backfiring.

Both "gender" and "sex" are constructs. Neither are "natural" categories.

Sex is a construct really? So the reason I have never gotten pregnant is that I have never believed hard enough?

 

[Shechemite]

I haven't really thought about it. And it's beside the point. I appreciate that there are arguments to be had about single sex safe spaces etc., and it's probably best to be had among those whom it affects. There's a difference between women's concerns and the gender critical ideologues who try to exploit them.

I remember mixed sex mental health wards (when they were the norm).

sexual harassment and assault were commonplace (although from wannabe gangster man-boys, not blaming trans people for this).

people’s ‘bits’ eh

 

[iveivan]

Do trans women need to call themselves men for GC feminists?

 

[hitmouse]

Sigh. I'm going to try not to get sucked into this, but co-op has made the point about the GC position, which is a consistent position - that oppression of one particular group comes about because of their reproductive role, the thing that can be precisely defined as a binary system. Everything else - the 'constructed' stuff, including including gender - springs from that.

But that's the thing, isn't it? We all know that story where a man and a woman switched email signatures and they were treated very differently as a result. Now, neither of those people had changed their biological sex, however that's defined. But, as a result of changing a gendered social marker, the way that people behaved to them changed. So it seems like biological sex isn't quite the be-all and end-all here.

 

[Gromit]

What am I missing if I don't think this thread is "transphobic"?

I believe in biological reality and do not subscribe to the notion of gender identity

The above quote is transphobic. She basically denies their existence. You don’t get more phobic than that.

 

[Idris2002]

The problem is two fold I think. The first is left wing politics has increasingly focussed on individualism, to the point now that with ‘intersectionist’ politics we can be down to units of one. Far from promoting human rights, this has (counterintuitively and not intentionally) resulted in increased experiences of discrimination in the privileged West. And less commonality, less power, and actually, less identity.

The second is the ideological move away from family and traditional gender roles. Ironically this has also led to a loss of identity. No one is as sure of where they stand any more. This has been good and useful in some ways, but damaging in others. We have lost a connection to the old ways- identity, transitions (especially coming of age), shared beliefs. These things stick society together. The left has pulled the identity of the working class apart at the seams since the 60s now looks on in surprise as it weakens. (The right have taken the traditional approach of just reinstating wealth and power inequality of course).

spot on

 

[Shechemite]

But that's the thing, isn't it? We all know that story where a man and a woman switched email signatures and they were treated very differently as a result. Now, neither of those people had changed their biological sex, however that's defined. But, as a result of changing a gendered social marker, the way that people behaved to them changed. So it seems like biological sex isn't quite the be-all and end-all here.

Why do you think the perception of being female leads to worse treatment?

 

[8ball]

But that's the thing, isn't it? We all know that story where a man and a woman switched email signatures and they were treated very differently as a result. Now, neither of those people had changed their biological sex, however that's defined. But, as a result of changing a gendered social marker, the way that people behaved to them changed. So it seems like biological sex isn't quite the be-all and end-all here.

We all know this stuff, though, don’t we?

 

[co-op]

But that's the thing, isn't it? We all know that story where a man and a woman switched email signatures and they were treated very differently as a result. Now, neither of those people had changed their biological sex, however that's defined. But, as a result of changing a gendered social marker, the way that people behaved to them changed. So it seems like biological sex isn't quite the be-all and end-all here.

But this is a point that is not about the sex of the people involved but about the gender roles that were activated by "knowing" their sex (falsely in this case).

 

[belboid]

That's a massive subject and I don't know that it'd lead to any fewer tears tbh. What I am absolutely sure of is that I know almost no one my age (late 50s/early 60s generation) who isn't massively turned off by the hard-trans position and I know people (all women) who are literally flipping to the political right on it, just to try and stop the gender-identity thing going any further, it's become the hardest wedge issue I have ever known. A good friend is going to vote tory in Scotland on it next month, my age & for the first time in her life, (Alba second vote). I feel like the world's gone mad.

Maybe their politics were a bit shit in the first place then. And this subject is showing up the limitations of some of their feminism. Someone is gonna vote for someone who definitely isn’t a rapist because they believe in women’s rights? Hmmm....

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But that's the thing, isn't it? We all know that story where a man and a woman switched email signatures and they were treated very differently as a result. Now, neither of those people had changed their biological sex, however that's defined. But, as a result of changing a gendered social marker, the way that people behaved to them changed. So it seems like biological sex isn't quite the be-all and end-all here.

I don't really know what kind of point you're trying to make here. Do you think there are gender critical feminists who would take issue with your point about differential treatment due to gendered social markers?

 

[Shechemite]

The very idea of these numpties critterspalining to a trans person about their "biological reality"... Because trans people are unaware of their own biology? They forgot to look down perhaps?

Does a persons biological reality (Or biological reality per se) ever need to be explained to them? Can I just rock up to the doctors and get the diagnoses and treatment I identify with? Is it always condescending for a doctor to dispute mine (or anyone else’s) perception of biological reality?

 

[co-op]

Maybe there politics were a bit shit in the first place then. And this subject is showing up the limitations of some of their feminism. Someone is gonna vote for a rapist because they believe in women’s rights? Hmmm....

I think you'd find little to object to in their politics before and yes my jaw was on the floor when she told me. It is blowing my mind what this topic is doing to the left.

 

[Knotted]

Isn't the implication that biological reality determines sex, and gender/roles/presentation is just a social construct You are male or female but you can dress, play with or behave as you like and liking princesses and kittens or cars and dinosaurs isn't biologically determined.

It's saying biological sex is biological reality, which is almost an empty truism. They go onto talk about redefining what it means to be a woman ie. "female erasure" theory. It's a bait and switch push on an open door to conjure the pretence that there is some serious opposition to an uncontroversial position and then sneak in a conspiracy theory about women no longer being able to be identified as women.

 

[Edie]

But that's the thing, isn't it? We all know that story where a man and a woman switched email signatures and they were treated very differently as a result. Now, neither of those people had changed their biological sex, however that's defined. But, as a result of changing a gendered social marker, the way that people behaved to them changed. So it seems like biological sex isn't quite the be-all and end-all here.

That’s a good point.

 

[MickiQ]

But that's the thing, isn't it? We all know that story where a man and a woman switched email signatures and they were treated very differently as a result. Now, neither of those people had changed their biological sex, however that's defined. But, as a result of changing a gendered social marker, the way that people behaved to them changed. So it seems like biological sex isn't quite the be-all and end-all here.

That's got nothing to do with what defines a man/woman though has it, that's good old fashioned sexual prejudice and whilst there is sadly still some life left in that particular beast it is a lot more sickly than it used to be. Listening to conversations between my mother and my daughter about their different life experiences drives that point home more than anything. Clearly it would be better if it ended tomorrow but it will be gone in a couple of generations tops anyway.

 

[8ball]

trans identification (as opposed to trans rights) is one of the new 'religions' where both sides are stating their view is the absolute truth and that any disagreement with their position is the blackest of heresies with everybody claiming the mantle of oppression.

I think the problem is partly that the left has so few tools for dealing with conflicts between oppressed groups - it basically has “solidarity in the face of a common oppressor”, and that’s not completely compatible with the Venn diagram here.

 

[Knotted]

She says sex is real, gender is socially constructed. I'm not sure what you mean by "biological reality" but like anyone who thinks the gender critical makes sense she doesn't think that "you are your bits".

If you actually think that GC position is that "you are your bits" then you've got it the wrong way round.

I submit that there isn't a GC position. It's a loose alliance of activists and twitter trolls. Some of them more like old second wave trans exclusionary radical feminists and some of them think it's very important and very "gotcha" to have a thing about "sex being real". And this just reeks of the latter.

The "mensturators" thing was about a clumsy attempt of a clinic at being inclusive of trans men and non binaries ie. people born female. And these "feminists" who think that biological sex conditions the oppression of women and forms the very definition of "woman" are actively trying to exclude female born people. It's a kick out all the trannies position. If it was a proper terf they would take care not to do that. It's just one troll after another.

 

[Shechemite]

And these "feminists" who think that biological sex conditions the oppression of women and forms the very definition of "woman" are actively trying to exclude female born people. It's a kick out all the trannies position.

Eh?