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Is this woman a transphobe?

Fair points.

Can I ask why you didn't just ignore those discussions and/or posters?
This would take a small essay tbh (i did try) but a mixture mainly of two things I think:
One is that, when you feel vulnerable, you may have a compulsion to see what is happening, what 'the threat' thinks, what they are doing.
The other, which is specific to here, is that I liked a lot of those same people, I thought of them as friends, so just ignoring their posts on that and carrying on elsewhere did not work. Some friendships were lost, some respect not repairable.
 
This would take a small essay tbh (i did try) but a mixture mainly of two things I think:
One is that, when you feel vulnerable, you may have a compulsion to see what is happening, what 'the threat' thinks, what they are doing.
The other, which is specific to here, is that I liked a lot of those same people, I thought of them as friends, so just ignoring their posts on that and carrying on elsewhere did not work. Some friendships were lost, some respect not repairable.

Thanks.

What would have been your preferred way for that to have panned out?
 
More specifically, would you rather not have known that was how your friends felt?
I'm going to have to think about that ! Honestly dont know the answer. It never occurred to me that the subject should not be discussed, or that it should be moderated into a state where nobody could hurt me, but it did get to a point where I felt i had to leave, which felt really shitty.
 
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a difference of opinion; it's the demand for orthodoxy that undermines broad-based solidarity.

And if they don't survive, that's sad, but life goes on; I find the idea that adults can't share a corner of the internet with someone with whom they disagree (even with the ability to ignore that person!) bizarre.

You seem to be treating this subject as an interesting thing to muse over. To put your thoughts down in writing. Other people here are talking about their very being. Their very life. Their lived experiences. Talking about "ignoring" people is totally missing the point.
 
mauvais you are arguing very persuasively.
I’m pretty convinced about your point that community is more important than thrashing this out. I am particularly aware of one or two other Mums who have trans kids for whom this is a tender subject.

So let’s talk about it. How would it look like if there was a self imposed moratorium on discussing trans issues here? Would it be workable, enforceable, desirable?
 
You seem to be treating this subject as an interesting thing to muse over. To put your thoughts down in writing. Other people here are talking about their very being. Their very life. Their lived experiences. Talking about "ignoring" people is totally missing the point.

I accept that there are people who have more emotional investment in this issue. But I don't think that affects the points I made.
 
There surely shouldn't be a moratorium on discussing trans issues. There's some really useful information about real world consequences relating to current policy on these threads for example. We should be blaming the transphobia, not the conversation.
 
A better idea might be a public boycott (time-limited if necessary), along with a digital picket line.

A thread could be started asking people to publicly commit to refrain from posting on such threads other than to dissuade others from doing so.

If people decline to join the boycott or breach their commitment there'd be social disproval but no bans and no absolute restriction on the freedom to discuss these issues.

It could explicitly acknowledge that we don't feel any subject should be off-limits, but that recent history suggests these discussions haven't provided much positive, and have damaged relationships. Effectively agreeing to disagree without the necessity to keep picking over the detail of that disagreement.

The obvious problem, though, is how do you define threads subject to a boycott? Trans people might like to be able to discuss these issues! Maybe an exception for threads started by trans people, unless and until they ask for the thread to come to an end?
 
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The thread was started with the intention of tutting at "tra's" (which means any trans person willing to speak up for themselves). Intimidating trans posters into silence and pushing them out was part and parcel of the whole game.

(The remaining) trans posters shouldn't feel they can't talk about trans issues because it would spark another debate where the nature of their very existence is up for discussion. They should even be able to criticise certain dubious branches of feminism if they want to.

(And yes there are problems within feminism, just like there are problems within everything else.)
 
I've enjoyed posting on Urban for the past year and a bit, and enjoyed reading others posts even more. But I'm going to stop now. This whole trans issue is awash with misunderstandings and ill feeling. It's coloured my view of other posters, almost certainly unfairly, but there you go. Too many seem to be oblivious to their encouragement of uniformity, orthodoxy and intolerance, their blinkered take on what is considered transphobic, bigoted etc etc I'll miss some of you. I won't miss others. Bye.
 
The thread was started with the intention of tutting at "tra's" (which means any trans person willing to speak up for themselves). Intimidating trans posters into silence and pushing them out was part and parcel of the whole game.

(The remaining) trans posters shouldn't feel they can't talk about trans issues because it would spark another debate where the nature of their very existence is up for discussion. They should even be able to criticise certain dubious branches of feminism if they want to.

(And yes there are problems within feminism, just like there are problems within everything else.)

There's important stuff and dodgy stuff on both sides of the debate. There'd have to be some reciprocity and a mutual recognition that any boycott is less about the substantive arguments, and more about the fact that people can agree that these threads seem to do more harm than good (for now, at least).
 
I've enjoyed posting on Urban for the past year and a bit, and enjoyed reading others posts even more. But I'm going to stop now. This whole trans issue is awash with misunderstandings and ill feeling. It's coloured my view of other posters, almost certainly unfairly, but there you go. Too many seem to be oblivious to their encouragement of uniformity, orthodoxy and intolerance, their blinkered take on what is considered transphobic, bigoted etc etc I'll miss some of you. I won't miss others. Bye.

Why not ignore this thread (and similar) and stay for the 99% of stuff on other topics?
 
I've enjoyed posting on Urban for the past year and a bit, and enjoyed reading others posts even more. But I'm going to stop now. This whole trans issue is awash with misunderstandings and ill feeling. It's coloured my view of other posters, almost certainly unfairly, but there you go. Too many seem to be oblivious to their encouragement of uniformity, orthodoxy and intolerance, their blinkered take on what is considered transphobic, bigoted etc etc I'll miss some of you. I won't miss others. Bye.

"The" trans thread of yesteryear was my main reason for quitting this site a couple of years ago. The few times I've dropped back in I've found it such hard work that I can manage a day or two before I have to go again. Emotionally supportive, not.

I may follow your lead, I really need to cut this place out but it's surprisingly hard after 10+ years. It's not getting better, and it doesn't even have the political education value it used to.
 
There's important stuff and dodgy stuff on both sides of the debate. There'd have to be some reciprocity and a mutual recognition that any boycott is less about the substantive arguments, and more about the fact that people can agree that these threads seem to do more harm than good (for now, at least).

I've not seen any dodgy stuff come from trans inclusive people here on urban, I can't speak for elsewhere. And to be fair most people on the other "side" aren't saying dodgy things either as far as I can tell. There isn't a fundamental conflict between trans rights and women's rights, there's just a few practical quandaries and this whole business about talking about sides is part of the problem.

We just need to fuck off the handful of idiots out of here.
 
I've not seen any dodgy stuff come from trans inclusive people here on urban, I can't speak for elsewhere. And to be fair most people on the other "side" aren't saying dodgy things either as far as I can tell. There isn't a fundamental conflict between trans rights and women's rights, there's just a few practical quandaries and this whole business about talking about sides is part of the problem.

We just need to fuck off the handful of idiots out of here.

I think you underestimate the challenge of identifying that handful!
 
I’ve no strong feelings either way, about whether this should be a subject about which this website decides it can't or doesn't want to speak at all. If it does turn out that way it would again just be a reflection of a wider thing.

But also I don't think i'm giving away any great secret if i say that there's a private conversation thats been going on, on and off, behind the back of this and previous threads, for years, amongst a smallish group of women most of whom never post on the public threads on this any more or even read them because they feel its impossible pointless or too painful to do so. And i think thats what you end up with, when you decide a conversation is too fraught to exist in the public square it's not that people stop wanting to discuss its just that you end up with little groups who mostly agree with each other talking only to each other. Which is most of the internet i suppose, and can be supportive and nice but something about it is sad too, its a giving up on the idea that we might learn by engaging.
 
So you think because there are male staff that there should not be single sex accommodation. See men like you are only too quick to take away our protections, because it makes no odds to you.
Your "you think" doesn't follow from what I said. Your post utterly dishonest because I'm not saying what you claim.
 
Your "you think" doesn't follow from what I said. Your post utterly dishonest because I'm not saying what you claim.
No one cares. Seriously, no one cares what you, a cis man, has to say about me as a woman wanting single sex prison accommodation for women. So hush.
 
No one cares. Seriously, no one cares what you, a cis man, has to say about me as a woman wanting single sex prison accommodation for women. So hush.
You do. You cared enough to reply to me and misrepresent what I said. I didn't say there shouldn't be such single sex accommodation.
 
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mauvais you are arguing very persuasively.
I’m pretty convinced about your point that community is more important than thrashing this out. I am particularly aware of one or two other Mums who have trans kids for whom this is a tender subject.

So let’s talk about it. How would it look like if there was a self imposed moratorium on discussing trans issues here? Would it be workable, enforceable, desirable?
Short answer: I don't know, it's difficult, and I'm glad I don't run this place.

Longer answer... I'm acutely aware of the deep irony of me, a cis man, chiming in on any of this, let alone putting forth the answer. But lots of other voices are now gone.

I'll try and articulate something. At work (which in its day to day business is not related to any of this) we have diversity/inclusivity spaces where staff can chat, share news articles and every so often - usually prompted by external events involving BLM, Pride etc - someone organises listening sessions. In this we hear all kinds of marginalised or minority voices, be it on societal racism or women's experiences in the workplace, and I've learnt a lot from it. Now I just can't imagine asserting strong opinions in these places, not least as I mentioned a while back, largely because it is not theoretical, it concerns real colleagues. If we were discussing this stuff in a void where they were absent then maybe I would be mansplaining it to death, because I am an idiot, but that's not how it is. It is for me to listen and often adjust my thinking. It's also not an arrangement that primarily exists for me to be educated; I can derive that from it if I'm lucky but it is mostly to provide a space for other people to organise and feel more supported in. As someone said to me, paraphrasing, it is not for society's victims to educate the non-victims - e.g. for women and non-binary people to educate us/me on gender discrimation.

In a work context it is easier to form this culture because of basic professionalism, but it's not just that, it's a people-centric construct where we are not just willy waving for the sake of an argument, it's made real by real people. In our case we already lost a lot of those people and even if they could be coaxed back we have not really reformed how we behave so it would invite more hurt.

I think I would ask the question: we are ourselves a fairly strong community that generally values and often knows each other, so how do we get to something like the culture I describe? Moratoriums on subjects etc are a strategy or implementation detail that may or may not support a bigger idea of creating an inclusive space and being good to each other. Behaviours I think we have here, like thinking of ourselves as something like Twitter - which is not a community - are the opposite of that.

Possibly it is too late, both in terms of the arc of this place and forums like it as a whole, and in terms of the representation we already lost. But trying to be more considerate in what we rattle on about would be a start, even if that does mean going a bit far and shutting down some discourse too soon because of its potential for toxicity. There are probably many other components to the answer too.
 
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