Is this woman a transphobe?

[Border Reiver]

Maybe not all that tiny really, if he's telling the truth about how one fifth of the staff at the Tavistock GIDS service grouped together to announce that they too had 'grave ethical concerns' about the service that their own workplace was providing?

There is no evidence of that save from the coterie of malcontents. The original whistleblower was his wife. It is a turf war with a large imbalance in numbers and seniority. Ma h of their stories were generalists on rotation and not permanent staff.

Their intention to limit trans rights has largely failed and matters should soon return to normal. If people do not agree with the treatment protocols and the established legal and ethical guidelines, there are many other areas in which they can work.

It has been a painful storm in a teacup. Courts are best kept out of doctor patient discussions.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

wow

If it's true you used to work in mental health, BR, you epitomise everything that is wrong with a certain form of narrow-minded psychiatry. The misplaced certainty, the arrogance and overconfidence in your methods, the tunnel vision that completely fails to take into account the social context of mental distress. It's all there.

And if you don't agree with the rules, you can fuck off. Just wow.

 

[bimble]

It has been a painful storm in a teacup.

well, time will tell. I think the teacup is much bigger than you think it is. I think we'll only know what sort of storm it was when its passed, which (my opinion) won't be for a generation or so.

 

[Knotted]

I didn’t do that, it seems you didn’t understand my post. Also, risking doing more harm than good is something that happens all the time, depending on an assessment of severity and likelihood of risk.

Right now I’m waiting for another operation, the decision of when to operate is based on their assessment of when the aneurysm becomes more likely to kill me than the operation (I forget the precise period of time this calculation is based on). This is a clear case of “risking doing more harm than good”. Where taking the risk is judged favourable, it is taken (I’m assuming matters of consent to be obvious).

Bloody 'ell mate. By way of example, I might be dying next week...

 

[Border Reiver]

well, time will tell. I think the teacup is much bigger than you think it is. I think we'll only know what sort of storm it was when its passed, which (my opinion) won't be for a generation or so.

Aside from the signatories (many if whom were not permanent staff) where is the evidence of any groundswell of opinion within the appropriate professionals? I know of none.

 

[kabbes]

wow

If it's true you used to work in mental health, BR, you epitomise everything that is wrong with a certain form of narrow-minded psychiatry. The misplaced certainty, the arrogance and overconfidence in your methods, the tunnel vision that completely fails to take into account the social context of mental distress. It's all there.

And if you don't agree with the rules, you can fuck off. Just wow.

Ironically, it’s the same arrogance that used to sit there telling trans people that they had a mental illness.

 

[Knotted]

Following the links in that article it looks fair to call them a coterie of malcontents. I keep seeing the same names and there's definitely ideological/activist connections. That's not to say they're wrong of course. I just want to emphasise that I don't have a bleedin' clue.

 

[Knotted]

Also and yes, immediate links to the real actual conversion therapist Kenneth Zucker. Just saying.

 

[Knotted]

8ball, I wasn't talking about me. I'm just alarmed about you. Hope everything goes well.

 

[bimble]

Aside from the signatories (many if whom were not permanent staff) where is the evidence of any groundswell of opinion within the appropriate professionals? I know of none.

I did not say that i have evidence of a groundswell within the appropriate professionals, you pompous oddball, i just said that in my opinion this isnt a teacup and the storm hasn't, at all, passed.

 

[bimble]

Ironically, it’s the same arrogance that used to sit there telling trans people that they had a mental illness.

Yes the Professionals may have been wrong then (was that a few months / years ago?) but they remain the only arbiters of immutable Truth now. So thats normal.

 

[8ball]

8ball, I wasn't talking about me. I'm just alarmed about you. Hope everything goes well.

Phew! - was checking your post history to see what was up...

 

[kabbes]

Yes the Professionals may have been wrong then (was that a few months / years ago?) but they remain the only arbiters of immutable Truth now. So thats normal.

And let’s not forget that it was the unimpeachable DSM that so recently listed homosexuality as a mental illness too.

 

[bimble]

And let’s not forget that it was the unimpeachable DSM that so recently listed homosexuality as a mental illness too.

I'm just grateful that The Professionals no longer think that the most likely cause of any inconvenient behaviours on my part is my womb floating off on walkabout around my body. That was a bit weird but true, obvs, at the time.
eta Hysteria was still in the DSM, as a diagnosis for women, until 1952, didnt know that.

 

[kabbes]

I'm just grateful that The Professionals no longer think that the most likely cause of any inconvenient behaviours on my part is my womb floating off on walkabout around my body. That was a bit weird but true, obvs, at the time.
eta Hysteria was still in the DSM, as a diagnosis for women, until 1952, didnt know that.

Wow, I did not know it was still there until 1952!

 

[smokedout]

He is a psychoanalyst who was a governor of the Tavistock but resigned a couple of years ago. The article is an explanation from him of why he resigned. I gave that bare bones background and nothing more as I didn't want to get involved in a new raft of discussion. 'It's complicated' would be my summary of the ethics of medical treatment for young people with gender dysphoria. This article I think gives insight into some of that complication. I don't necessarily buy all of his psychoanalytical ideas about GD - just as an endocrinologist is likely to see everything as a hormone problem, so a psychoanalyst is likely to see everything as a problem rooted in Freudian ideas about attachment - but I also didn't particularly see the need for me to signpost that.

Normally, as I said, I would quote a couple of bits to show why I was linking to it. The idea that it's not responsible to post it without adding more is weird, though. Are these dangerous ideas or something?

No, just a lot of it isn't true, or only tells half the story, and so it gives an entirely misleading representation of the situation.

 

[8ball]

No, just a lot of it isn't true, or only tells half the story, and so it gives an entirely misleading representation of the situation.

Is there somewhere free of the poisoned well effect where people could generally go if they wanted information about the general state of affairs, internationally speaking?

Would be useful for some of those “what do you think of this?” IRL convs which have begun to come along a bit.

 

[teuchter]

Is there somewhere free of the poisoned well effect where people could generally go if they wanted information about the general state of affairs,

If there's one thing that's clear about all this, it seems to be that the answer to this question is "no".

 

[smokedout]

Maybe not all that tiny really, if he's telling the truth about how one fifth of the staff at the Tavistock GIDS service grouped together to announce that they too had 'grave ethical concerns' about the service that their own workplace was providing?

It was well known to both trans kids and their parents that there was a group of clinicians at the Tavistock who opposed transition and were dogmatically committed to psycho-therapeutic solutions. This has always been one of the key areas of practice at the Tavistock and it's only because of the legacy of being trans being seen as a mental health disorder that they ended up running GIDS. And anyone who has ever come across Freudian psychoanalysts will know how hard they defend their dicipline, I suspect because its evidential foundations are so weak.

But the fact is when you step outside of the Tavistock, and this handful of anonymous clinicians, there are thousands of clinicians delivering this kind of treatment and seeing successful results every day all over the world. And puberty blockers have been used since the mid 90s, even in the UK in some cases. There is a global medical consensus that supports this treatment when gender dysphoria is consistent, insistent and persists into the early stages of puberty - even outliers like Kenneth Zucker agree.

It's worth remembering that it came out in Keira's case that out of about nearly 3000 referrals to the Tavistock just 161 were referred for blockers. Even amongst the most dysphoric trans kids - because most will never get near the Tavistock - this treatment is very rare. These young people are exceptional, in great distress, often self-harming and have quite often lived in their aquired gender for many years. Doing nothing is not a neutral act. They have undergone extensive assessment, their parents and doctors agree on the treatment, and as far as we know Keira Bell is the only one who has expressed regret - and the details of her treatment are disputed by the Tavistock. He's not someone I'm likely to cite often but I agree with Jolyon Maugham who worked on the most recent case, what can a Judge bring to the table in cases like these.

 

[smokedout]

Is there somewhere free of the poisoned well effect where people could generally go if they wanted information about the general state of affairs, internationally speaking?

Would be useful for some of those “what do you think of this?” IRL convs which have begun to come along a bit.

Well if you want medical opinion then pretty much any paediatric medical body in any comparable country, or WPATH, the Endocrine Society or even GIDS themselves.

 

[smokedout]

Ironically, it’s the same arrogance that used to sit there telling trans people that they had a mental illness.

And ironically it's those opposed to any form of medical treatment who are still telling trans people they have a mental illness. Thankfully most of medicine has moved on.

 

[8ball]

Well if you want medical opinion then pretty much any paediatric medical body in any comparable country, or WPATH, the Endocrine Society or even GIDS themselves.

WPATH link is useful, thanks. As is the link to the conversation with Jolyon Maugham.

 

[Border Reiver]

I did not say that i have evidence of a groundswell within the appropriate professionals, you pompous oddball, i just said that in my opinion this isnt a teacup and the storm hasn't, at all, passed.

Given that the law and medical ethics have recently reinforced the legal and clinical appropriateness of prescription of puberty blockers being a matter beyond the courts and professionally acceptable with simple adult or parental consent, there is little wriggle room for change of practice.

You do seem to have difficulty debating without using rather childish abuse.

 

[bimble]

You do seem to have difficulty debating without using rather childish abuse.

ced

I suggest you pop me onto your ignore list Ced.

 

[Border Reiver]

wow

If it's true you used to work in mental health, BR, you epitomise everything that is wrong with a certain form of narrow-minded psychiatry. The misplaced certainty, the arrogance and overconfidence in your methods, the tunnel vision that completely fails to take into account the social context of mental distress. It's all there.

And if you don't agree with the rules, you can fuck off. Just wow.

You are very wrong. My roots are in the anti-psychiatry movements of the sixties and seventies. I ran units based on Therapeutic Community principles. I am not necessarily supporting DSM and such. But that is the context of NHS Psychiatry. You seem to make doubtful knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Border Reiver]

I suggest you pop me onto your ignore list Ced.

You just came off it.

 

[kabbes]

You are very wrong. My roots are in the anti-psychiatry movements of the sixties and seventies. I ran units based on Therapeutic Community principles. I am not necessarily supporting DSM and such. But that is the context of NHS Psychiatry. You seem to make doubtful knee-jerk reactions.

You’re the one basing your statements about psychological phenomena on what the DSM says. Somebody founded in anti-psychiatry should view the very existence of that manual as anathema.

 

[Border Reiver]

I suggest you pop me onto your ignore list Ced.

The issue here is civil rights, not medicical practice.

Why should a third party have any standing in deciding the medical treatment offered by a medical practitioner with informed consent from the patient or guardian? Same answer as any other such medical decision.

Consent to termination of pregnancy is analogous.

 

[Shechemite]

You are very wrong. My roots are in the anti-psychiatry movements of the sixties and seventies.

movements well known for their top notch safeguarding practices

 

[A380]

wow

If it's true you used to work in mental health, BR, you epitomise everything that is wrong with a certain form of narrow-minded psychiatry. The misplaced certainty, the arrogance and overconfidence in your methods, the tunnel vision that completely fails to take into account the social context of mental distress. It's all there.

And if you don't agree with the rules, you can fuck off. Just wow.

I suggest you pop me onto your ignore list Ced.

Lay bets on which of you ‘gets ignored’ first...