Is it worrying that EDL members freedoms are restricted

[moon23]

I'd suggest that's exactly why the concept is one only used by paranoid freaks.

Or those who have studied totalitarian regimes, and spend their time defending freedom against the possibility of their re-emergence.

 

[butchersapron]

Or those who have studied totalitarian regimes, and spend their time defending freedom against the possibility of their re-emergence.

Who would laugh at the suggestion that the UK in 20911 is totalitarian. I win.

 

[manny-p]

'First they came for the racists...'

Are you talking about Liam and Butchers

 

[moon23]

Yes, this is my argument. It's what you do. You abstract rights and fredoms from the ability to use them, from society. It's why you're not a liberal and why you're a tory cunt.

I don't abstract them at all, I think the ability to use them is increased by actually providing them rather than restricting people.

 

[butchersapron]

Or those who have studied totalitarian regimes, and spend their time defending freedom against the possibility of their re-emergence.

Why don't you take these peoples research seriously? Why make a mockery of them by your use of the term?

 

[moon23]

Who would laugh at the suggestion that the UK in 20911 is totalitarian. I win.

No one has suggested that the UK is totalitarian.

 

[ViolentPanda]

perhaps someone who is in favour of this sentence could explain how the sentence prohibits him in any way from engaging in the same anti-social behaviour away from edl demos?

It doesn't.

This is wrong. He will now become a celebrity 'victim' of 'political correctness' to his kind.

By all means prosecute him for what he did. But a ban on political activity?

This a dangerous precedent and follows a pattern.

In the 1980's it was convicted footie fans who first had their liberties clipped. Being banned from grounds or their vicinity; banned from away games; stopped en masse and either arrested or sent home. No one made a big deal about it cos it was only 'soccer hooligan scum'.

Then they did it to the Miners and their supporters during the strike. Too late to speak out, the precedent was well set.

No doubt Mubarak would have liked a few laws and Courts like this in the last couple of months.

I suspect that the train ban was requested by the BTA or by the rail company on whose platform he abused the victims, as there's a history dating back to British Rail of banning abusive customers from use of the service. I knew a couple of squaddies who had to use coaches to go home on leave rather than trains because they were stupid enough to kick off on railway property and got bans.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes I understand it's use which is why I called the excessive restrictions on this person's life and freedom of movement and expression of political thought totalitarian.

Except that it isn't. It's an example of authoritarianism, not of totalitarianism.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't abstract them at all, I think the ability to use them is increased by actually providing them rather than restricting people.

Meaningless waffle. I think providing rights is best served by providing rights. What the fuck do you think you've just said? The economic program you support (and lied that you didn't support) is right now denying rights to the poorest - argue politics. Here and now.

 

[moon23]

Why don't you take these peoples research seriously? Why make a mockery of them by your use of the term?

This is perverse, many of these people write about the threats of totalitarian regimes in order that people can be on the look out for their traits and prevent them. I can't think of a single scholar of such societies that wouldn't be appalled and repulsed by this case.

 

[butchersapron]

No one has suggested that the UK is totalitarian.

You have.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ooh fuck. Looks like it's not only the magistrate who is setting dangerous precedents. Does that mean I have to join the lib-dems now?

That, or do the honourable thing.

 

[butchersapron]

This is perverse, many of these people write about the threats of totalitarian regimes in order that people can be on the look out for their traits and prevent them. I can't think of a single scholar of such societies that wouldn't be appalled and repulsed by this case.

So to just use the word totalitarianism in relation to the UK makes a mockery of their research.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You can refer to something being totalitarian in it's nature without e.g. Of, relating to, being, or imposing to total control.

No, you can't, unless you're the sort of prick who also accuses teachers of being fascists for setting homework.

I think judges should have the power to fine, give community sentence or custodial sentence depending on the specifics of the case. I don't think specific orders should be placed to restrict any lawful activity on the basis that it's related to a previous criminal activity.

Such orders have existed, in democracies, for as long as the concept o democracy has existed. Being a typical neo-liberal, you always put individual liberties first.

 

[Blagsta]

Or those who have studied totalitarian regimes, and spend their time defending freedom against the possibility of their re-emergence.

Freedom for the wealthy only. Funny sort of freedom.

 

[Blagsta]

I don't abstract them at all, I think the ability to use them is increased by actually providing them rather than restricting people.

It's exactly what you do.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes you do support civil liberty curtailing economic policies, ones in which we have less freedom to choose how we generate and spend wealth. Old school liberals would sit down and talk with me, unlike your abusive and rude self.

This is what a neo-liberal politics gets you - wibbling about the freedoms of one person over the freedom of the people Overton manifests an irrational hatred of to not be racially abused.

 

[moon23]

Meaningless waffle. I think providing rights is best served by providing rights. What the fuck do you think you've just said? The economic program you support (and lied that you didn't support) is right now denying rights to the poorest - argue politics. Here and now.

Your falling into the typical Marxist trap of conflating liberty with an argument for state to intervene and control the distribution of resources. Your concept of freedom is paradoxical.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If that were the case that you can't have mild totalitarianism then how to you suppose a state becomes totalitarianism? Does it overnight just switch in a binary definition to totalitarianism or is it rather the case that a series of characteristics by which we identify something as totalitarian emerge over time.

It generally transits through increasingly harsh levels of authoritarianism or does indeed become totalitarian overnight (usually due to a coup[/]).

 

[Blagsta]

Your falling into the typical Marxist trap of conflating liberty with an argument for state to intervene and control the distribution of resources. Your concept of freedom is paradoxical.

Your concept of freedom is one that only applies to the wealthy.

 

[moon23]

This is what a neo-liberal politics gets you - wibbling about the freedoms of one person over the freedom of the people Overton manifests an irrational hatred of to not be racially abused.

Whereas Marxism allows for the restriction of minorities for the greater good of the collective morality.

 

[Fruitloop]

OMG.

 

[The39thStep]

'First they came for the racists...'

There is a certain amount of truth in this. The order didn't come off the top of the magistrates head.The EDL fits domestic extremism perfectly and unlike the far right Muslim groups nobody is going to wring there hands about them.I posted up a case a couple of months ago where the court used asbos for two EDL members.

I had a discussion with someone who occasionally posts here about how STWC and ANTIFA were at one time in the same sights .

 

[butchersapron]

Your falling into the typical Marxist trap of conflating liberty with an argument for state to intervene and control the distribution of resources. Your concept of freedom is paradoxical.

You what? I'm doing no such thing, i'm equating liberty with the ability to collectively identify, come up with and then impose real life actions to social problems. You are a massive freak.

 

[moon23]

Your concept of freedom is one that only applies to the wealthy.

Not at all, you can be poor and free. Although you are less likely to be subjected to poverty in a society where people are free to participate in economic activity.

 

[moon23]

There is a certain amount of truth in this. The order didn't come off the top of the magistrates head.The EDL fits domestic extremism perfectly and unlike the far right Muslim groups nobody is going to wring there hands about them.I posted up a case a couple of months ago where the court used asbos for two EDL members.

I had a discussion with someone who occasionally posts here about how STWC and ANTIFA were at one time in the same sights .

NETCU will soon be looking to use these laws against what they deem left wing extremists too.

 

[moon23]

You what? I'm doing no such thing, i'm equating liberty with the ability to collectively identify, come up with and then impose real life actions to social problems. You are a massive freak.

In this case the collective have decided to restrict this person from attending any protest not within Birmingham. So this dissident has been dealt with and his views suppressed.

 

[The39thStep]

I don't think the Lib dems are going to stand in the Council elections on a defend EDL rights platform?

 

[Blagsta]

Not at all, you can be poor and free. Although you are less likely to be subjected to poverty in a society where people are free to participate in economic activity.

You can be poor and free?

Please tell me how to "participate in economic activity" with no access to capital? An answer this time would be nice, as this is the essential point you always chicken out of answering.

 

[The39thStep]

NETCU will soon be looking to use these laws against what they deem left wing extremists too.

They no doubt would if left wing extremists were actually doing anything