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Irish equal marriage referendum

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8den said:
I think you are also forgetting how far the church has fallen in Ireland since the 80s. They were such a powerful and dominant force in the irish social landscape.

They brought down governments the constitution was sent to them for proof reading. Christ the laundries would still be active for another decade
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Who is forgetting how powerful the Church used to be?

As an aside, DeValera was engaged in a bit of a balancing act with the Constitution. All the bloviating about God in the preamble and the recognition of the "special position" of the Catholic Church was in there precisely to disguise the fact that it didn't establish the Church, didn't give it any substantive rights or privileges and also recognised the minority religions.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
Who is forgetting how powerful the Church used to be?

As an aside, DeValera was engaged in a bit of a balancing act with the Constitution. All the bloviating about God in the preamble and the recognition of the "special position" of the Catholic Church was in there precisely to disguise the fact that it didn't establish the Church, didn't give it any substantive rights or privileges and also recognised the minority religions.
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It also incorporated a lot of stuff from the Free State constitution as well, apparently.

Tim Pat Coogan notes that when the bishops tried to mediate in the teachers' strike of 1946, Dev and co. gave them total cold shoulder. And Ferriter claims he saw a letter from McQuaid to Sean Lemass which has a note in Lemass' handwriting which reads 'his Grace's letter does not merit a reply'.

It's very easy to exaggerate the power of the church, and it's an activity usually undertaken by those who are waiting for an alibi. 'It was all the church's fault, it was nothing to do with us'. Oh yes it was something to do with you, me fine buckoes.
 
Idris2002 said:
It's very easy to exaggerate the power of the church, and it's an activity usually undertaken by those who are waiting for an alibi. 'It was all the church's fault, it was nothing to do with us'. Oh yes it was something to do with you, me fine buckoes.
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Yes. The Church didn't run the country - it was the ideological apparatus of a wider ruling class.
 
Idris2002 said:
It also incorporated a lot of stuff from the Free State constitution as well, apparently.

Tim Pat Coogan notes that when the bishops tried to mediate in the teachers' strike of 1946, Dev and co. gave them total cold shoulder. And Ferriter claims he saw a letter from McQuaid to Sean Lemass which has a note in Lemass' handwriting which reads 'his Grace's letter does not merit a reply'.

It's very easy to exaggerate the power of the church, and it's an activity usually undertaken by those who are waiting for an alibi. 'It was all the church's fault, it was nothing to do with us'. Oh yes it was something to do with you, me fine buckoes.
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True, but when you're in a country where the statement "I'm a Catholic first and a Irishman second" was uttered by one of our Taoiseaches you can't deny the unquestioned power they had in our country since it's foundation. It's only really started to erode in the early 90s.

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8den said:
True, but when you're in a country where the statement "I'm a Catholic first and a Irishman second" was uttered by one of our Taoiseaches you can't deny the unquestioned power they had in our country since it's foundation. It's only really started to erode in the early 90s.
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The point he is making is that the Bishops were an important part of the ruling elite, but they were only a part of it, alongside our business and political elite. These people shared a worldview. It wasn't a case of the politicians doing as they were told. They didn't need to be told, they already agreed with each other. When there was disagreement and the Bishops did try to tell the politicians what to do, they sometimes got their way but they were quite often told to mind their own fucking business.
 
Glitter said:
What was the Church's issue with tampons?
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Priests thought they had something to do with birth control. Which is why it's fucked up they had so much power over birth control and reproductive rights for so long.
 
I was at university in Dublin in the eighties when the law changed so that condoms could be bought without a prescription if you were over 18.
Think about that for a minute; imagine being a student before the law changed. There you are, all studenty and away from home and full of beans and beer and hormones and surrounded by lots of people in the same frame of mind and getting your hands on a condom took a LOT of planning. People used to go to Northern Ireland to buy them and they'd take orders. Condom smugglers, no less. And the railway line between Belfast and Dublin got bombed by the IRA a fair bit, so the condom smugglers were an intrepid bunch, to say the least.

Anyway, when the law changed, vending machines in toilets became a thing - every time the student union put one up in the men's toilets, it would last about a day until it got vandalised and all the condoms got stabbed with a compass.

I don't think people my age in the UK actually believe me when I say that, you know. But it's true.

Seeing as I seriouly doubt that there were gangs of ninja priests ad rosary rattling Mammies carrying out midnight sorties, running in under cover of darkness, armed with sledgehammers and compasses, it stands to reason that members of the student body were categorically opposed to the relaxation in the laws surrounding the availability of contraceptives, as per the teachings of their church.
That's not all that long ago and so those people are now in their late forties. They'll be voting, no doubt.

People who think say the church is less powerful now than it has been down through history and than it was when I was a teenager are no doubt right; but it still has influence over an awful lot of people in Ireland today.
 
Espresso said:
I was at university in Dublin in the eighties when the law changed so that condoms could be bought without a prescription if you were over 18.
Think about that for a minute; imagine being a student before the law changed. There you are, all studenty and away from home and full of beans and beer and hormones and surrounded by lots of people in the same frame of mind and getting your hands on a condom took a LOT of planning. People used to go to Northern Ireland to buy them and they'd take orders. Condom smugglers, no less. And the railway line between Belfast and Dublin got bombed by the IRA a fair bit, so the condom smugglers were an intrepid bunch, to say the least.

Anyway, when the law changed, vending machines in toilets became a thing - every time the student union put one up in the men's toilets, it would last about a day until it got vandalised and all the condoms got stabbed with a compass.

I don't think people my age in the UK actually believe me when I say that, you know. But it's true.

Seeing as I seriouly doubt that there were gangs of ninja priests ad rosary rattling Mammies carrying out midnight sorties, running in under cover of darkness, armed with sledgehammers and compasses, it stands to reason that members of the student body were categorically opposed to the relaxation in the laws surrounding the availability of contraceptives, as per the teachings of their church.
That's not all that long ago and so those people are now in their late forties. They'll be voting, no doubt.

People who think say the church is less powerful now than it has been down through history and than it was when I was a teenager are no doubt right; but it still has influence over an awful lot of people in Ireland today.
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I think it was Athlone RTC where they just put packets of condoms in an old cigarette vending machine, and then said "look, it's not a condom dispensing machine, therefore no law is being broken".

Espresso said:
There you are, all studenty and away from home and full of beans and beer and hormones and surrounded by lots of people in the same frame of mind
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As for this, well, between the aspiration and the reality lies an unbridgable chasm, legal contraception or not. Next week: safe sex at the cinema, by going on your own.
 
8den said:
Priests thought they had something to do with birth control.
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That wasn't it.

The objection was that they interfered with nature by mitigating the effects of "the curse," thus also circumventing various Biblical injunctions. Also they looked a bit like dildos.
 
phildwyer said:
That wasn't it.

The objection was that they interfered with nature by mitigating the effects of "the curse," thus also circumventing various Biblical injunctions. Also they looked a bit like dildos.
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Or was it because they're inserted, and therefore could potentially breach the hymen.

The debate is getting silly now.

a journalist calling for a "no" vote Bruce Arnold is in the Irish times today saying;

According to Mr Arnold, when he moved to Ireland [sixty years ago] homosexuality was not penalised or illegal and “homosexuals lived a reasonably open and happy life”.
…
“’Homosexuality was never a crime in Ireland.
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http://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...o-call-for-yes-vote-says-journalist-1.2219334

While David Quinn and the Iona Institute are claiming they were campaigning for decriminalisation and civil partnerships back in the day.

I'm beginning to think these bible thumpers skimmed the ten commandments.
 
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On the flip side you have Ursula Halligan, TV3's political editor who came out in this heartbreaking letter the other week.

I was a good Catholic girl, growing up in 1970s Ireland where homosexuality was an evil perversion. It was never openly talked about but I knew it was the worst thing on the face of the earth.

So when I fell in love with a girl in my class in school, I was terrified. Rummaging around in the attic a few weeks ago, an old diary brought me right back to December 20th, 1977.

Because of my upbringing, I was revolted at the thought that I was in love with a member of my own sex. This contradiction within me nearly drove me crazy. These two strands of thought jostled within me pulling me in opposite directions.

In the 1970s, homophobia was rampant and uninhibited. Political correctness had yet to arrive. Homosexuals were faggots, queers, poofs, freaks, deviants, unclean, unnatural, mentally ill, second class and defective humans. They were society’s defects. Biological errors. They were other people. I couldn’t possibly be one of them.

Over the years I watched each of my siblings date, party, get engaged, get married and take for granted all the joys and privileges of their State-acknowledged relationship.

My coping strategy was to pour myself into my studies and later into my work. I didn’t socialise much because I had this horrible secret that must never come out. It was a strategy that worked until I’d fall in love again with a woman and the whole emotional rollercoaster of bliss, pain, withdrawal and denial resumed. It was a pattern that would repeat itself over the years.

And never once did I openly express my feelings. I suppressed everything and buried myself in books or work. I was careful how I talked and behaved. Nothing was allowed slip. I never knew what it was like to live spontaneously, to go with the flow, to trust my instincts . . . I certainly couldn’t trust my instincts.

For years I told no one because I couldn’t even tell myself. It was a place I didn’t want to go. It was too scary; too shameful. I couldn’t cope with it. I buried it.



Emotionally, I have been in a prison since the age of 17; a prison where I lived a half-life, repressing an essential part of my humanity, the expression of my deepest self; my instinct to love.

It’s a part that heterosexual people take for granted, like breathing air. The world is custom-tailored for them. At every turn society assumes and confirms heterosexuality as the norm. This culminates in marriage when the happy couple is showered with an outpouring of overwhelming social approval.

For me, there was no first kiss; no engagement party; no wedding. And up until a short time ago no hope of any of these things. Now, at the age of 54, in a (hopefully) different Ireland, I wish I had broken out of my prison cell a long time ago. I feel a sense of loss and sadness for precious time spent wasted in fear and isolation.

Homophobia was so deeply embedded in my soul, I resisted facing the truth about myself, preferring to live in the safety of my prison. In the privacy of my head, I had become a roaring, self-loathing homophobe, resigned to going to my grave with my shameful secret. And I might well have done that if the referendum hadn’t come along.

Now, I can’t quite believe the pace of change that’s sweeping across the globe in support of gay marriage. I never thought I’d see the day that a Government Minister would come out as gay and encounter almost nothing but praise for his bravery. But that day did come, and the work done down the decades by people like David Norris, Katharine Zappone, Ann-Louise Gilligan and Colm O’Gorman made me realise that possibilities existed that I’d never believed would ever exist.

I told a friend and the world didn’t end. I told my mother, and the world didn’t end.

Then I realised that I could leave the prison completely or stay in the social equivalent of an open prison. The second option would mean telling a handful of people but essentially go on as before, silently colluding with the prejudices that still find expression in casual social moments.
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Imagine going through life till the age of 47 with such fear and self loathing. She came out to her bosses and recused herself from her job for the duration of the referendum. Everyone has been wonderfully supportive of her bravery.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/u...m-led-me-to-tell-truth-about-myself-1.2212960
 
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And in other news hatstand right wing commentator Kevin Myers is saying;

The act of consummation is when the marriage is legally valid. It doesn’t become a marriage until it is legally consummated. And there is no equivalent deed, as far as I can see, for lesbians or gay men.
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http://www.thejournal.ie/kevin-myer...e-legal-2115432-May2015/?utm_source=shortlink


Of course if he googled "gay sex" or "lesbian sex" with google safe search off, he may find about half a billion videos on the internet that say differently.
 
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8den said:
True, but when you're in a country where the statement "I'm a Catholic first and a Irishman second" was uttered by one of our Taoiseaches you can't deny the unquestioned power they had in our country since it's foundation. It's only really started to erode in the early 90s.
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Rubbish . The special status in the free state constitution was removed via referendum, overwhelmingly , back in the early 70s . The catholic church was told to feck off on a number of occasions . including by devalera, whom the bishops openly despised for a long time and made absolutely no secret of it . Not that it ever stopped people voting for him continually in massive numbers .
You're mistaking the inner cravenness of the average Irish person for a supposedly omnipotent catholic church . They had no power . There were just a lot of stupid and weakminded Irish people .

There still are, they just bow the knee to other institutions now instead .
 
Casually Red said:
You're mistaking the inner cravenness of the average Irish person for a supposedly omnipotent catholic church . They had no power . There were just a lot of stupid and weakminded Irish people .

There still are, they just bow the knee to other institutions now instead .
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Dismissing my opinion while at the same time making a broad generalisation about the motivations and personalities of a entire nation. Marvellous.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
The point he is making is that the Bishops were an important part of the ruling elite, but they were only a part of it, alongside our business and political elite. These people shared a worldview. It wasn't a case of the politicians doing as they were told. They didn't need to be told, they already agreed with each other. When there was disagreement and the Bishops did try to tell the politicians what to do, they sometimes got their way but they were quite often told to mind their own fucking business.
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They were a sometimes useful , and necessary ,agent of social control, particularly in a state born out of a foreign demand , followed by an horrendous civil war , that was long vexed with a question of legitimacy from the outset . It was never a republican state , bar the trappings, and the title which only appeared in the late 1940s...almost by accident .

It was a bantustan that opted for a catholic identity as opposed to a national one . Not just as result of partition but because of a deeper rooted political malaise within the constitutional nationalist tradition that wanted partition . Which rejected republicanism and instead canonised the likes of Daniel OConnell, who equated Catholicism with national identity . And which later spawned the hibs , who wielded unquestioned political power for a very long time .

And it's that political tradition which largely gave rise to the problem of this catholic identity being expressed in national terms . Which was often the tradition and instinct of the political elite anyway . But it served them well until it suited them to cast it off . After it became a political liability as opposed to an asset . All this stuff about " maturing" is a complete load of bollocks . Their as childish, craven and hypocritical as ever . It's just expressed differently .

But anyways this is largely a strawman argument thrown up by historically dyslexic idiots like the one above in their desperation to finally ..at long last...thumb their nose at an institution that has no social power anymore. And import a cultural and political Americanism for the sake of it . Paying no heed to the fact the political and media elite , a rotten clique with no values, sponsoring this thing now bend the knee to a different institution and take their cues from elsewhere these days . Anyone who thinks this isn't a tail being wagged by a foreign , powerful, neo liberal dog has their head up their hole .

This simply isn't about equal human rights , it's a false argument . The ECHR made that very clear in their ruling that gay marriage isn't a human right, and no state which refuses to import it is in any manner in breach of anyone's human rights . The ECHR aren't dominated by any bishops , they aren't homophobes either .
 
"Anyone who thinks this isn't a tail being wagged by a foreign , powerful, neo liberal dog has their head up their hole ."

Could there be a connection to the Kennedy assasination, do you reckon, Casually Red old bean?
 
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