Immigration BLAH BLAH BLAH

[cockneyrebel]

1 how on earth is this abstract?? ... noting the effects of neo liberalism on labour via immigration and arguing for a turn AWAY from abstract politics like 'open borders' and STW to local issues and trade unionism .. how the fck is that abstract

It's abstract because in reality you have no real policies. You talk about local activism but then just say there will be "problems and difficulties" instead of giving real answers.

What I'm asking isn't complicated. What would you define as local? Boroughs? And if so does that mean anyone moving into that area wouldn't be given priority for housing, jobs and healthcare, even if they had the most need? What kind of mad system would that be for a socialist to put forward.

We've gone over the whole thing about saying migration is good or bad and I've said how pointless I think those tags are.

Of course I argue against war, sweat shops, gangmasters etc because they will always be a bad thing. But migration isn't bad in and of itself. If someone wants to move from south to north london, or France to Germany etc that isn't in and of itself a bad thing. Forced migration is as are the main causes of migration (war, poverty, starvation etc). But I'm not gonna argue against migration as I don't want to stop migration in and of itself, under a global socialist society there would be nothing wrong with it. And the only way you'll get rid of forced migration is to get rid of capitalism, to say anything else is utterly utopian.

And as for forced migration, the point is to argue against the causes, not have some abstract claim that it is bad and then nothing else other than localised protectionism which when expanded on doens't amount to much.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Italian fascism wasn't based on futurism. However, it's integral parts were based on: nationalism, authoritarianism, militarism, corporatism, anti-liberalism, and anti-communism.

The Futurists explored every medium of art, including painting, sculpture, poetry, theatre, music, architecture.

The Italian poet Filippo Tommaso Marinetti was the first among them to produce a manifesto of their artistic philosophy in his Manifesto of Futurism.

Marinetti founded the Partito Politico Futurista in 1918. This was later was absorbed into Benito Mussolini's Fasci di combattimento. This made Marinetti one of the first supporters and members of the National Fascist Party.

However, he opposed Fascism's later exultations calling them reactionary, as I have done in a previos post.

It was also a Russian movement.

Thanks for answering that. It saved me the bother. : )

 

[smokedout]

another anti union rant .. brilliant .. CR/VP/MC5 please note your bedfellows

what i see on urban though is you and smoked out and others obsessed with the down sideof TUs instead of the positives .. especially when the state has been progressivel attacking unions and we are down to 20% membership ... do you not think there might be soime correlation with the current impotence of the w/c and this???
Reply With Quote

im not obsessed with the downside of unions at all, i consider them a vital part of the struggle

but given the context of this thread i thought it worth pointing out that in the past many of the unions have not been mightly harbingers of anti-racism, and some of em still aint, the prison officers mob for example

 

[militant atheist]

Morning Star editorial sums up the debate quite well today I thought.

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index2.php/free/comment/blaming_migrants

Paticularly the final seven paras:

'Organisations such as Migrationwatch play down this positive reality and complain that migrants "send home about £10 million a day."

If export of wealth is such a problem, how is it that Migrationwatch has nothing to say about the £200 billion invested overseas by British business every year?

Migrationwatch prefers to concentrate on the comparatively minor sums sent home by migrant workers to their families. It concentrates too on the problems to which immigration can contribute, such as lowering pay levels or exacerbating housing shortages.

But immigration alone cannot explain low wage levels or inadequate housing.

Low pay exists because employers seek to impose it in the cause of maximum profits and a similar situation pertains with regard to housing, which is treated as a market rather than an essential service.

The best way to prevent low pay is by ensuring that immigrant workers are unionised and welcomed into the battle to improve wages and conditions.

The same goes for housing, which becomes more expensive year on year and will do so until government agrees to fund low-rent council housing to weaken the inexorable rise in house prices.'

 

[durruti02]

im not obsessed with the downside of unions at all, i consider them a vital part of the struggle

but given the context of this thread i thought it worth pointing out that in the past many of the unions have not been mightly harbingers of anti-racism, and some of em still aint, the prison officers mob for example

fair play ..

 

[Irenick]

And the only way you'll get rid of forced migration is to get rid of capitalism, to say anything else is utterly utopian.

Very succinctly put. We should strip away the rhetoric; and, focus on this one crucial aspect of the class struggle.

 

[treelover]

Interestingly, the bete noire of the 'open borders brigade': Andrew Green of Migration Watch is an Arabist, chairman of the charity Medical Aid for Palestinians, a member of the advisory board of the Sudan Peace Building programme and a board member of Christian Solidarity Worldwide. Not so easy to call a racist then, but it won't stop the ostriches trying. He and his organisation may indeed turn out to be suspect, the problem is , the far left and their fellow travellers don't really want a debate.


The respected former diplomat has roused controversy by claiming that the current rate of immigration threatens the UK's stability. With both the government and the BNP heeding him, he says he's not a racist but a realist

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/7days/story/0,,1984385,00.html


[/QUOTE]

 

[118118]

I don't disagree with the statement, but to say

And the only way you'll get rid of forced migration is to get rid of capitalism

isn't that *technically* utopian? May be wrong.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Surely, that depends on whether you think it is possible or not? Getting rid of capitalism is very difficult but as a system it has only been around 400 years or so; the evidence seems to suggest it might well end up self-destructing before the next 400 years is up unless we manage to replace it by something else- socialist planning and working class power seem like a good alternative.

Cockney rebel isn't saying tho there's nothing we can do in the here and now but suggesting that we oppose forced deportations through community campaigns, support the organisation of migrant workers and stronger trade unions in general, fighting for workers' control of resources and industry in the here and now and make links between anti-racist campaigns and other pro working class campaigns such as strikes

 

[118118]

I didn't think that was the technical def. of the world. Cos Marx did not speculate on the nature of communism as it would be utopian, yet he had "a vision" of hpw to get there.

 

[audiotech]

Interestingly, the bete noire of the 'open borders brigade': Andrew Green of Migration Watch is an Arabist, chairman of the charity Medical Aid for Palestinians, a member of the advisory board of the Sudan Peace Building programme and a board member of Christian Solidarity Worldwide. Not so easy to call a racist then, but it won't stop the ostriches trying. He and his organisation may indeed turn out to be suspect, the problem is , the far left and their fellow travellers don't really want a debate.


The respected former diplomat has roused controversy by claiming that the current rate of immigration threatens the UK's stability. With both the government and the BNP heeding him, he says he's not a racist but a realist

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/7days/story/0,,1984385,00.html

You night want to note down that Migration Watch is linked directly to the eugenics movement launched in the 19th century by Francis Galton to promote the “improvement” of the human race by controlled selective breeding.

The connection is Migration Watch’s principal researcher and co-founder, David Coleman, professor of demography at Oxford University.

Coleman held various offices in the Eugenics Society from the early 1970s, until it changed its name to the less obviously contentious Galton Institute in 1988.

 

[tbaldwin]

There was an interesting bit on migration on news 24. Showing Phillipino nurses in the UK who earned £24,000 compared to the £1,800 they earnt at home. Not suprisingly this means that the philipino health services dont have enough nurses.

The people arguing for uncontolled immigration dont seem to care about things like that too much.
Instead of getting nurses from countries like the phillipines the UK should be training its own and increasing their wages.
If it does take Nurses from poor countries like the Phillipines i reckon it would be fair to give 25% of what that person earns to health services in the country they come from.

 

[treelover]

er, so is Steve Jones, is he a racist?

Officers and Council Members

The current Officers and Council are:
President Professor Steve Jones, BSC, PhD

 

[urbanrevolt]

We seem to keep going round in circles here. You have maade a similar point many times and it has been answered.

There are masssive inequalities in the world and in some cases there is a case that migration of skilled workerscan cause shortages in the vcountries from which they have migrated. However, the solution you seem to suggest of forcibly preventing migration would in effect just be trapping people in certain areas because of their ethnic background and makes about as much sense as preventing rural to urban migration by building a great big wall and shooting people who try to get in the city- which to some extent is what borders come down to.

The soltuin to inequality is not to force people to live in a particular place or force people back there which leads to brutal and unfari decisions and bolsters racism, still less is it to pay foreign workers less as yopu seem to imply.

The only long term solution is to build a militant international workers' movement to overthrow capitalism and in the shorter term this would mean organising migrant workers in trade unions, a militant trade union movement to protect workers' conditions and possibly there could be an argumerit for taxing the companies that profit from the use of migrant labour to help bosst the health services from which they have come- though, this is a complex issue tyere could be some merit in this variation of your suggestion ratherr than the extremely draconina and in effect racist (whatever your subjective intentions) solution of taking it wawy from foreign workers.

 

[tbaldwin]

We seem to keep going round in circles here. You have maade a similar point many times and it has been answered.

There are masssive inequalities in the world and in some cases there is a case that migration of skilled workerscan cause shortages in the vcountries from which they have migrated. However, the solution you seem to suggest of forcibly preventing migration would in effect just be trapping people in certain areas because of their ethnic background and makes about as much sense as preventing rural to urban migration by building a great big wall and shooting people who try to get in the city- which to some extent is what borders come down to.

The soltuin to inequality is not to force people to live in a particular place or force people back there which leads to brutal and unfari decisions and bolsters racism, still less is it to pay foreign workers less as yopu seem to imply.

The only long term solution is to build a militant international workers' movement to overthrow capitalism and in the shorter term this would mean organising migrant workers in trade unions, a militant trade union movement to protect workers' conditions and possibly there could be an argumerit for taxing the companies that profit from the use of migrant labour to help bosst the health services from which they have come- though, this is a complex issue tyere could be some merit in this variation of your suggestion ratherr than the extremely draconina and in effect racist (whatever your subjective intentions) solution of taking it wawy from foreign workers.

UR Im not saying foreign workers should be paid less...I really dont know where you got that from?
Your long term solution is all very fine and well but what should be done NOW.
Should people support economic migration when it leads to so much misery or not?

 

[revol68]

UR Im not saying foreign workers should be paid less...I really dont know where you got that from?
Your long term solution is all very fine and well but what should be done NOW.
Should people support economic migration when it leads to so much misery or not?

you seem to forget that people send money home too. I mean up until the 90's thousands of young irish people flocked over to England for work and often sent money home, what would you have done? Sent them home and told them that it was for their own good?

fuck me but your an idiot.

 

[tbaldwin]

you seem to forget that people send money home too. I mean up until the 90's thousands of young irish people flocked over to England for work and often sent money home, what would you have done? Sent them home and told them that it was for their own good?

fuck me but your an idiot.

Aaaah Trickle down economics........

"Look it doesnt matter that the UK has taken all the Nurses,cos some of them send money home"
"But i really need a Nurse"
"Yes i know but there sending money home"
"Oh thats OK then"

 

[tbaldwin]

you seem to forget that people send money home too. I mean up until the 90's thousands of young irish people flocked over to England for work and often sent money home, what would you have done? Sent them home and told them that it was for their own good?

fuck me but your an idiot.

Years of Economic migration from Ireland seems to have dried up...Parts of London that were known as Irish have really changed in the last 10 and 15 years....I think that EU money helped that process and the more skilled workers that stayed in Ireland led to the more success for the Celtic Tiger.

 

[urbanrevolt]

UR Im not saying foreign workers should be paid less...I really dont know where you got that from?
Your long term solution is all very fine and well but what should be done NOW.
Should people support economic migration when it leads to so much misery or not?

I thought you meant that when you said:

"If it does take Nurses from poor countries like the Phillipines i reckon it would be fair to give 25% of what that person earns to health services in the country they come from."

but can see this could mean the company or in this case the government gives that money and am pleased that you are not suggesting foreign workers earn less. In the meantime, i would support greater union militancy, for public campaigns against cuts/privatisation including opening the books and accounts to public scrutiny with the abolition of business secrecy, for the organisation of migrant workers in trade unions which (as against your seeming view unless I';ve got this wrong too) would mean in many cases (not Filipino nurses as it goes) for the aboltion of the illegal status of many migrant workers, for solidarity with trade unionists and anti-poverty campiagners from the imperialised world etc.

What I am not in favour of is strengthening immigration controls or arguing that they should be

 

[durruti02]

Italian fascism wasn't based on futurism. However, it's integral parts were based on: nationalism, authoritarianism, militarism, corporatism, anti-liberalism, and anti-communism.

The Futurists explored every medium of art, including painting, sculpture, poetry, theatre, music, architecture.

The Italian poet Filippo Tommaso Marinetti was the first among them to produce a manifesto of their artistic philosophy in his Manifesto of Futurism.

Marinetti founded the Partito Politico Futurista in 1918. This was later was absorbed into Benito Mussolini's Fasci di combattimento. This made Marinetti one of the first supporters and members of the National Fascist Party.

However, he opposed Fascism's later exultations calling them reactionary, as I have done in a previos post.

It was also a Russian movement.

hey you can use google .. well done and yes marinetti and the futurists as you have learnt helped set up facism in italy er as i said .. a lot of similarities with the "communism = socialism plus electricity" leninists .. mussolini was an opportunist .. and they invariably are reactionaries

 

[tbaldwin]

UR. Yeah i think that companies/govts should be compensating for the workers poached and there is no way that i want to see phillipino nurses lose 25% of their pay.
And i think that its good if they join unions.
But the way to tackle world poverty and inequality is not to encourage people who can, to leave poor countries. Its to argue for International Policies that are in the interests of the majority and economic migration whatever way you look at it is not in the interests of the majority.

 

[tbaldwin]

Oi durrutti....Dont knock the futurists......Its not their fault their time machine was sabotaged....

 

[durruti02]

It's abstract because in reality you have no real policies. You talk about local activism but then just say there will be "problems and difficulties" instead of giving real answers.

What I'm asking isn't complicated. What would you define as local? Boroughs? And if so does that mean anyone moving into that area wouldn't be given priority for housing, jobs and healthcare, even if they had the most need? What kind of mad system would that be for a socialist to put forward.

We've gone over the whole thing about saying migration is good or bad and I've said how pointless I think those tags are.

Of course I argue against war, sweat shops, gangmasters etc because they will always be a bad thing. But migration isn't bad in and of itself. If someone wants to move from south to north london, or France to Germany etc that isn't in and of itself a bad thing. Forced migration is as are the main causes of migration (war, poverty, starvation etc). But I'm not gonna argue against migration as I don't want to stop migration in and of itself, under a global socialist society there would be nothing wrong with it. And the only way you'll get rid of forced migration is to get rid of capitalism, to say anything else is utterly utopian.

And as for forced migration, the point is to argue against the causes, not have some abstract claim that it is bad and then nothing else other than localised protectionism which when expanded on doens't amount to much.

you continue to repeat this idea that migration is good .. historically 99% of migration has been forced .. it is only in our m/c individualist times, when we have taken for reality Tebbits exhortation to get on yer bike, or the american capitalist motto of go west, that we think this is NOT the case

and yes concentrate on capitalism .. THAT has actually been what this is all about to get people to look at what the capitalists are doing .. not looking at the world thru gap year eyes

and you can not do that by being myopic as to the causes and effects of neo liberal immigration NOR by ignoring the real concerns of ordinary people and condemning them as racists if the complain NOR by not understanding that when the bosses have the ability to constantly renew the reserve army of labour, the w/c are pretty powerless

 

[durruti02]

you seem to forget that people send money home too. I mean up until the 90's thousands of young irish people flocked over to England for work and often sent money home, what would you have done? Sent them home and told them that it was for their own good?

fuck me but your an idiot.

hey the whole world should be happy to be forced to immigrate, live in shitty digs do shitty work cos they can send some pennies home .. fwl

you and so many others on here seem SO happy with capitalism i do not understand why you say you are against it