Immigration BLAH BLAH BLAH

[cockneyrebel]

icepick: whether you like it or not, asylum and immigration is definitely one of the most important issues for people in this country. Just because you don't think it is doesn't mean it's not.

I think you've read what icepick is saying totally wrongly. He wasn't saying that immigration isn't an issue for people in the sense of it being a concern for people and being in the media all the time, but that it's not the real problem for the working class, but a scapegoat of the ruling class.

that is why they were all up.. a week or so ago there was only one or two ..

Actually there were at least six on the front page already......

That aside I still can't work out what you and mk12 are proposing other than offering the pretty banal statement that immigration should be talked about as an issue. So lets take that as granted, so where do we go from there, what practical solutions are you providing.

tbaldwin has at least said that he goes with the solution of strict border controls, deportations, detention camps etc etc Do you and mk12 agree with this and if not what are your practical solutions? I'd say we need to fight for a good minimum wage, trade union rights, a mass build of council housing, stopping the privatisations of the NHS and education and put this in the context of fighting for socialism.

But if you want to highlight immigration as the actual problem (I don't think it is, any more than women coming into the work place), then you need to have answers.

Even for tbaldwin it poses problems as we already have strict border controls, so where do you go from there? Watch towers with machine guns? Blowing up refugee boats? Because the current immigration controls clearly don't work.

To be honest immigration controls are utterly utopian. 2/3s or refugees end up in third world countries as if people in a world of mass poverty and starvation and war are just suddenly gonna think, "oh, some bloke called tbaldwin has said it's better if the working class all stay in their own countries, so I guess I will do then.". So when we talk about a strain on services here, we can cope a damn site better than countries that have no health or education systems in place. Or is the answer, fuck them, they're already fucked anyway.

 

[tbaldwin]

I
But if you want to highlight immigration as the actual problem (I don't think it is, any more than women coming into the work place), then you need to have answers.

Even for tbaldwin it poses problems as we already have strict border controls, so where do you go from there? Watch towers with machine guns? Blowing up refugee boats? Because the current immigration controls clearly don't work.

To be honest immigration controls are utterly utopian. .

Strict Immigration controls? No we have selective immigration control..Its different for people with money and it depends what country you come from.
A million poles havent found it too difficult have they?
I'm arguing that we need stricter immigration controls and that we need to control who can and cant work and receive services in the UK. Im not arguing that immigrants need to be blown up etc.
Im argiung that supporting economic migration is supporting genocidal policies.

 

[belboid]

A million poles havent found it too difficult have they?

tssk tssk, your arguments so weak you have to make up the figures now! Worse than the Daily Mail.

 

[cockneyrebel]

A million poles havent found it too difficult have they?

Not sure if it's a million, but that aside that comes from freedom of movement in the EU.

Ok so you'd start by banning freedom of movement/work in the EU.

But even then the current immigration controls wouldn't work, so for them to work you'd have to get very strict.

So where do you draw the line? More customs guards, detention centres and mass deportations?

Or the whole hog and watch towers, armed guards and guard dogs?

And do you have no problem with the fact that if you set up fortresses in imperialist countries then it will be even poorer countries who will have to support economic refugees? (this is leaving aside any positive aspects of immigration). They already take 2/3s of refugees and most economic migrants. Because stopping mass economic migration full stop is utterly utopian under capitalism and it wouldn't matter if you had global socialism (and most people wouldn't wanna move anyway if they weren't facing poverty and starvation).

 

[mk12]

That aside I still can't work out what you and mk12 are proposing other than offering the pretty banal statement that immigration should be talked about as an issue. So lets take that as granted,

But you're not taking it as granted! You're criticising durruti and co for always talking about it!

And you and icepick don't think immigration affects the w/c? How do you know this?

 

[tbaldwin]

tssk tssk, your arguments so weak you have to make up the figures now! Worse than the Daily Mail.

Lets face it everybody makes up figures this one came via a polish supplement in the Guardian....I dont really know the true figure and neither do you....But what i do know is its fucking loads.....

 

[tbaldwin]

Not sure if it's a million, but that aside that comes from freedom of movement in the EU.

Ok so you'd start by banning freedom of movement/work in the EU.

But even then the current immigration controls wouldn't work, so for them to work you'd have to get very strict.

So where do you draw the line? More customs guards, detention centres and mass deportations?

Or the whole hog and watch towers, armed guards and guard dogs?

And do you have no problem with the fact that if you set up fortresses in imperialist countries then it will be even poorer countries who will have to support economic refugees? (this is leaving aside any positive aspects of immigration). They already take 2/3s of refugees and most economic migrants. Because stopping mass economic migration full stop is utterly utopian under capitalism and it wouldn't matter if you had global socialism (and most people wouldn't wanna move anyway if they weren't facing poverty and starvation).

CR that people are facing starvation and poverty is beyond question...
The question is does economic migration makes things better or worse...For me its a bit of a nobrainer...If poor countries lose the skilled workers they most need....What happens to the people left behind?

 

[cockneyrebel]

But you're not taking it as granted! You're criticising durruti and co for always talking about it!

And you and icepick don't think immigration affects the w/c? How do you know this?

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

1) I'm criticising the fact that you and durutti talk about it but never seem to provide anything counstructive other than saying the left should register is as a concern. And then what?

2) I didn't say it doesn't affect the working class, I'm saying it's not the root problem and saying you want to stop mass migration under capitalism is utterly utopian.

3) See 2.

 

[cockneyrebel]

CR that people are facing starvation and poverty is beyond question...

The question is does economic migration makes things better or worse...For me its a bit of a nobrainer...If poor countries lose the skilled workers they most need....What happens to the people left behind?

So how do you stop this from happening? Does every country around the world have stalinist style border controls?

Lets have some practical policies here. We already have detention centres, border controls and deportations, so how do you intend to make them stricter?

 

[tbaldwin]

So how do you stop this from happening? Does every country around the world have stalinist style border controls?

Lets have some practical policies here. We already have detention centres, border controls and deportations, so how do you intend to make them stricter?

OK fair points...
Yes of course i think countries should have border controls and they should also control the flow of migrant workers by ensuring that people have work permits etc and medical cards etc....
One of the things the Tories cut back on was health and safety inspectors etc....and what they saw as unneccesary regulation of business etc.
I would be all for the UK leaving the EU and halting the flow of people from other countries as well.

 

[cockneyrebel]

OK fair points...
Yes of course i think countries should have border controls and they should also control the flow of migrant workers by ensuring that people have work permits etc and medical cards etc....

But all countries currently have border controls, the question is how would you make them work, considering they are utterly ineffective at the moment?

We already have deportations, detention centres and border guards, so would you step all these up?

And what about third world countries with pitiful resources? Or doesn't it matter as long as they don't get here?

 

[mk12]

"saying you want to stop mass migration under capitalism is utterly utopian."

And saying you want to abolish all immigration controls isn't?

 

[cockneyrebel]

And saying you want to abolish all immigration controls isn't?

Under capitalism there will always be border controls and they will always be ineffective.

At least tbaldwin is giving it a go in terms of practical solutions. What are yours?

 

[tbaldwin]

But all countries currently have border controls, the question is how would you make them work, considering they are utterly ineffective at the moment?

We already have deportations, detention centres and border guards, so would you step all these up?

And what about third world countries with pitiful resources? Or doesn't it matter as long as they don't get here?

1 Thats an exaggeration that doesnt stand up.
2 Yes....But not without addressing the reasons people want to flee poverty ridden countries...
3 They also need support.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Thats an exaggeration that doesnt stand up.

Every country country has border controls. Mass migration happens every year. That seems to suggest it's not very effective.

Yes....But not without addressing the reasons people want to flee poverty ridden countries...

And you think that would happen under a global capitalist system. If so you you're utterly utopian. If not then we'll need socialism first, which means the border control stuff becomes irrelevant.

They also need support.

What and that's gonna happen under capitalism?

So basically you're saying that we need harsher border controls but can give no real solution of how these will be provided world wide and just vague statements of "they need support".

As said totally utopian. You're mixing a daily mail agenda of ever stricter border controls (that don't work anyway) with totally utopian socialist rhetoric.

 

[tbaldwin]

Every country country has border controls. Mass migration happens every year. That seems to suggest it's not very effective.



And you think that would happen under a global capitalist system. If so you you're utterly utopian. If not then we'll need socialism first, which means the border control stuff becomes irrelevant.



What and that's gonna happen under capitalism?

So basically you're saying that we need harsher border controls but can give no real solution of how these will be provided world wide and just vague statements of "they need support".

As said totally utopian. You're mixing a daily mail agenda of ever stricter border controls (that don't work anyway) with totally utopian socialist rhetoric.

1 Of course its not 100% effective,nobody would argue that it is...But its effective as some people would like and more effective than some would like as well as being less effective than some would like...To say immigration controls dont work is simply not true.

2+3 Under capitalism...There is already a range of assistance for poorer countries. The question of how much it should be or how much good it does is another point..

 

[durruti02]

CR you are blind! i have put solutions a dozen times on here!! and i have consistently argued in the last 6 months at least AGAINST border control .. (i agree with you and shock disagree with TB on this!!!! ) ..

it think it is a supply/demand thing .. you shut off the demand .. you stop the supply ..

so as i have said many times before .. the left and the TUs make the closed shop a major priority .. we demand companies recruit locally and are forced to train .. we picket firms and agencies recruiting cheap labour .. we demand the state enforces employment law and improve it .. ditto minimum wage .. we recruit and aid immigrants to organise ..

BUT this is honestly where you HAVE got it wrong ... if you look at the words in ptrintof the left over the last few years immigration will merit less than 5% .. and of that it will be a knee jerk recation about racism and fascism .. ( dennis i know SP did a half decent article )

YET in the real world it IS a major topic of conversation .. it is a major subject for the scum press .. it is a major recrituing tool and vote winner for the BNP

THEREFORE we need to ALSO have a major propaganda attack around the issue .. highlightling what is going on AND FOR WHOSE BENEFIT but yes obviously with a strong internationalist and anti racist messge too

 

[tbaldwin]

(i agree with you and shock disagree with TB on this!!!! ) ..

Splitter....If theres one thing i hate more than somebody who disagrees with me all of the time.....Its splitters like you....Comrade discipline please.

 

[mk12]

Under capitalism there will always be border controls and they will always be ineffective.

At least tbaldwin is giving it a go in terms of practical solutions. What are yours?

Democracy in decision making. My personal decision on it isn't made up to be honest. I just like the idea of communities and workplaces having a say in all matters. That will include immigration.

 

[mk12]

Under capitalism there will always be border controls and they will always be ineffective.

At least tbaldwin is giving it a go in terms of practical solutions. What are yours?

Do you not think saying "abolish all immigration controls" is utopian?

 

[Ryazan]

Hello mk12.

 

[mk12]

What do you think about immigration controls Jim?

 

[Ryazan]

Adapting to conditions for ordinary people through attempts at unionisation, as well as coming together to address problems in regard to resources in poor areas where immigrants are housed.

 

[mk12]

Sounds like a plan!

 

[Ryazan]

It sounds good, but...

 

[mk12]

I don't really disagree with you. But I also don't disagree with durutti and co on how immigration is being used by the bosses

 

[cockneyrebel]

Of course its not 100% effective,nobody would argue that it is...But its effective as some people would like and more effective than some would like as well as being less effective than some would like...To say immigration controls dont work is simply not true.

Does mass immigration, both legal and illegal, happen every year. Yes it does, therefore immigration controls aren’t working. They might stop some immigration but in terms of stopping mass immigration across the globe they clearly don’t. And suggesting that mass immigration will ever stop under capitalism is utopian.

Under capitalism...There is already a range of assistance for poorer countries. The question of how much it should be or how much good it does is another point..

So that’s why the majority of people live in abject poverty and hundreds of millions suffer from starvation. News flash, but that’s capitalism for you and isn’t gonna change under capitalism.

Again you’ve suggested nothing practical, just wishful thinking that if only all the rich countries could be nice to the poor ones and if only those nasty workers would stop crossing borders. Oh and although most countries don’t have any money for health care and education there will miraculously be Stalinist immigration controls enforced all round the world.

Sorry but it’s utopian nonsense.

CR you are blind! i have put solutions a dozen times on here!! and i have consistently argued in the last 6 months at least AGAINST border control .. (i agree with you and shock disagree with TB on this!!!!

Which is why I have addressed different points to you.

so as i have said many times before .. the left and the TUs make the closed shop a major priority .. we demand companies recruit locally and are forced to train .. we picket firms and agencies recruiting cheap labour .. we demand the state enforces employment law and improve it .. ditto minimum wage .. we recruit and aid immigrants to organise ..

But who would disagree. Better trade union rights, agreed. Better employment laws agreed. Better minimum wage agreed. Getting immigrant workers into trade unions agreed. Fight against employment agencies using cheap labour and scab labour. Agreed again. But what has any of the above got specifically to do with immigration other than trying to get all workers into trade unions? Loads of UK born workers aren't in trade unions as well.

While all of this will help us fight the bosses, it will do nothing to stop mass immigration. So if this is all you’re saying, then there isn’t a lot of difference. If you’re saying that this is what the left should be saying, then again, fair enough, but who disagrees with any of these suggestions?

THEREFORE we need to ALSO have a major propaganda attack around the issue .. highlightling what is going on AND FOR WHOSE BENEFIT but yes obviously with a strong internationalist and anti racist messge too

Agreed and this is very, very different from what tbaldwin is saying. You also have to be very careful how you go about this kinda thing and you don't wanna end up sounding like the Daily Mail.

Democracy in decision making. My personal decision on it isn't made up to be honest. I just like the idea of communities and workplaces having a say in all matters. That will include immigration.

Yet more earth shattering suggestions. Sorry mk12 but this is just more empty sloganeering and is stating the bleedin’ obvious.

Do you not think saying "abolish all immigration controls" is utopian?

No as it’s intrinsically linked to having a global socialist system. Under capitalism there will always be border controls and there will always be mass immigration.

I don't really disagree with you. But I also don't disagree with durutti and co on how immigration is being used by the bosses

The bosses are using immigration to their advantage......really, it's one pearl after another today

 

[tbaldwin]

Does mass immigration, both legal and illegal, happen every year. Yes it does, therefore immigration controls aren’t working.

Do people break the speed limits every day? Yes they do therefore should we get rid of all speed limits? etc etc

 

[cockneyrebel]

Do people break the speed limits every day? Yes they do therefore should we get rid of all speed limits? etc etc

I've said that immigration controls do stop some immigration, just as speed limits stop a lot of speeding.

But immigration controls clearly don't stop mass immigraion, which happens globally every year. Unless you have stalinist border controls (with watch towers, barbed wire and armed guards) along every countries borders it's never gonna stop mass immigration. And those kinda border controls are never gonna happen whether you think they're desirable or not.

 

[smokedout]

we demand companies recruit locally and are forced to train .. we picket firms and agencies recruiting cheap labour .. we demand the state enforces employment law and improve it .. ditto minimum wage .. we recruit and aid immigrants to organise ..

well done, and whilst youre doing that then the immigrants will keep coming

perhaps you could stand at dover with a placard saying 'down with this sort of thing' as well

i find it truly said, and quite frightening that people who claim to be of the left seem to be spouting the same crap that enoch powell spouted years ago`

believe it or not durretti, and you aint worthy of the name, the unions in this country were incredibly racist in many areas in the 70's and 80's and it took a long hard fight for that to change ... they to justified that racism by utilising the arguments you use, as ice pick points out, many of them also objected to women in the workplace for exactly the same reason

yes the bnp use immigration as a weapon to strengthen their position in w/c areas, just like they always have ... we used to fight them for it, now it seems that some on the left are happier to appease working class racism

why do you believe that people born in the UK (presumably of anglo-saxon stock) have a greater right to good wages, housing and public services than those who happen to be born elsewhere

because if that is your opinion and it seems to be then you are a racist and a nationalist and have no place on the anarchist left, ive told you before youd be happier in the bnp, they have some surpinsingly socialist policies you know and their position on immigration almost exactly matches yours

we had this argument in the left 20 years ago, maybe some who havent seen exactly how bad racism got feel the need to re-open the debate ... i dont, i know where it leads