Immigration BLAH BLAH BLAH

[cockneyrebel]

now it seems that some on the left are happier to appease working class racism

Indeed some lefties, so frightened of their middle class insecurites keep spouting on about listening to the working class (well there's an idea, no socialist has ever thought of that one before ), that they are actually frightened about challenging reactionary ideas in the working class.

 

[cockneyrebel]

why do you believe that people born in the UK (presumably of anglo-saxon stock) have a greater right to good wages, housing and public services than those who happen to be born elsewhere

It's hard to tell what durutti is saying.

Durutti, do you think that people born here should be prioritised when it comes to jobs, housing and public services?

And what do you mean that firms should have to recruit locally. Where are you gonna put the boundries. Five miles, ten, fifteen?

 

[cockneyrebel]

they have some surpinsingly socialist policies you know and their position on immigration almost exactly matches yours

To be fair I don't think the BNP stand for no borders!!

 

[smokedout]

does duretti stand for no borders

how does that work then

 

[cockneyrebel]

He said he does. It's very confusing trying to work out what he's saying.

Other than the usual things most left groups fight for: trade union rights, employment rights, decent minimum wage, more social housing etc he also said he believes in no borders.

I can't actually work out what his problem with the left is, it all seems to boil down to that they don't cover the issue of immigration enough. If he means that they don't take the BNP on head on with left answers to why there are problems of jobs, housing etc and give a left alternative then I agree.

tbaldwin on the other hand wants stalinist border controls world wide. As utterly utopian as it is barbaric. Oh he also wishes those nasty rich countries would be a little bit nicer to the poor ones so people wouldn't wanna move around anymore.

mk12 doesn't seem to know what he wants

 

[smokedout]

but surely if there were no borders then immigration would cease to exist as a concept

 

[smokedout]

im well aware of baldwin's stalinist wank fantasies btw, it makes him feel like more of a man

that was stalins excuse as well

 

[cockneyrebel]

but surely if there were no borders then immigration would cease to exist as a concept

You couldn't have no borders apart from under socialism, that's why it can only be fought for in conjunction with trying to get global socialism.

I think durutti is arguing about what we need here and now, but even then it's hard to work out exactly what's being said.

 

[Ryazan]

im well aware of baldwin's stalinist wank fantasies btw, it makes him feel like more of a man

that was stalins excuse as well

Organising workers and robbing banks in the Tsarist Russian Empire took balls. Nevermind that the chip on that shoulder of his was indulged to the extreme.

 

[mk12]

edit

 

[tbaldwin]

Indeed some lefties, so frightened of their middle class insecurites keep spouting on about listening to the working class (well there's an idea, no socialist has ever thought of that one before ), that they are actually frightened about challenging reactionary ideas in the working class.

I'm not frightened of challenging reactionary ideas in the working class.And supporting economic migration is certainly one of the most reactionary ideas.

 

[northernhord]

Indeed some lefties, so frightened of their middle class insecurites keep spouting on about listening to the working class (well there's an idea, no socialist has ever thought of that one before ), that they are actually frightened about challenging reactionary ideas in the working class.

Ive been challenging reactionary ideas in my Community (working class) for decades

 

[cockneyrebel]

I'm not frightened of challenging reactionary ideas in the working class.And supporting economic migration is certainly one of the most reactionary ideas.

You can support it or not support it, it's gonna happen whether you like it or not, to think otherwise is totally utopian. The best someone like you can hope for is a fortress UK with stalinist/fascist border controls. And that would be great wouldn't it.

 

[dash]

I wonder why Japan doesn't have much immigration. Presumably it should do, according to the 'mass immigration is inevitable' theory, as there are some quite poor countries in the region, eg the Philippines.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I wonder why Japan doesn't have much immigration. Presumably it should do, according to the 'mass immigration is inevitable' theory, as there are some quite poor countries in the region, eg the Philippines.

The mass migration being inevitable "theory" isn't about one country or another but looking at things globally.

As said you could probably make the UK a fortress island and say fuck the rest of the world, but it's not really much of a stance for a socialist.

Also from articles I've just googled there are over 250,000 illegal immigrants in Japan (mainly from China and the Philippines) and 1.5 million registered foreign workers. Still fairly substantial if percentagely less than a lot of other places.

But they have just introduced a law saying that illegal workers will receive prison sentences so maybe tbaldwin will be pleased with that.

 

[tbaldwin]

You can support it or not support it, it's gonna happen whether you like it or not, to think otherwise is totally utopian. The best someone like you can hope for is a fortress UK with stalinist/fascist border controls. And that would be great wouldn't it.

People trafficing would undoubtedly increase if there were genuinelly open borders..That would mean many more deaths..Something Libertarians seem happy enough with...

People left behind in poor countries would also suffer...Again something Libertarians seem happy to accept.

Supporting economic migration is a very sad thing for anyone who calls themselves a Socialist to support..

Supporting free market policies on migration is at best deeply misguided.

 

[cockneyrebel]

People trafficing would undoubtedly increase if there were genuinelly open borders..That would mean many more deaths..Something Libertarians seem happy enough with...

People left behind in poor countries would also suffer...Again something Libertarians seem happy to accept.

Supporting economic migration is a very sad thing for anyone who calls themselves a Socialist to support..

Supporting free market policies on migration is at best deeply misguided.

But no-one I’ve ever come across thinks you can have open borders under capitalism, it is a demand that is linked intrinsically with the fight for global socialism. So all your points above aren’t valid and you’re just repeating the same phrases over and over.

The fact that stopping mass migration under capitalism is a totally utopian idea seems to totally escape you. The best you’ll get is individual countries with fortress style borders and ever harsher punishments on immigrants, not something many socialists would think would be the way forward.

As someone said earlier it’s so utopian to think that you’ll stop mass migration globally that you might as well travel round the world with a placard and megaphone shouting out migration is bad.

 

[tbaldwin]

As someone said earlier it’s so utopian to think that you’ll stop mass migration globally that you might as well travel round the world with a placard and megaphone shouting out migration is bad.

erm...Or belong to an organisation of 30 people who want to end capitalism?
Bit Utopian too dont you think?

The thing is that if so called Socialists think that arguing against free market policies on migration that lead to so much misery is a bad thing, then perhaps they should reconsider their views.

 

[tbaldwin]

The fact that stopping mass migration under capitalism is a totally utopian idea seems to totally escape you. The best you’ll get is individual countries with fortress style borders and ever harsher punishments on immigrants, not something many socialists would think would be the way forward.

Different govts and different countries have had differing policies on migration.
The Labour govt has been very Liberal and confused on the issue and immigration has risen massivelly while they have been in power.
This has had negative consequences not only for people in the UK competing for Jobs and Housing but also on many of the people left behind in countries those migrants come from.

 

[mk12]

But no-one I’ve ever come across thinks you can have open borders under capitalism

So why campaign on it then? Surely they should concentrate solely on developing things which can actually "abolish capitalism"?

 

[durruti02]

It's hard to tell what durutti is saying.

Durutti, do you think that people born here should be prioritised when it comes to jobs, housing and public services?

And what do you mean that firms should have to recruit locally. Where are you gonna put the boundries. Five miles, ten, fifteen?

yes absolufuckingutly .. this policy would be the best thing the left have said in a million years .. locally means locally .. i.e as local as possible .. this is right morally and tactically

force the bosses to train kids .. get sustainability in employment .. stop people driving across london to work while someone else drives the other way ( shit wrong thread ) .. gtets kids of the street and give sthem some skills etc etc

ok this isn't easy BUT doing so will help create real connectionsin a way arguing for no borders can never do

yes there are down sides .. insularity etc etc .. BUT we will NEVER fking change ANYTHING if we do not get back some power to do that changing

 

[smokedout]

my god you talk some crap ... fuck off back to royston vasey

 

[smokedout]

locally means locally .. i.e as local as possible .. this is right morally and tactically

you mean follow the same protectionism as fortress europe but on a smaller scale

 

[durruti02]

you mean follow the same protectionism as fortress europe but on a smaller scale

do you lock your door at night? then shut the fck up

jesus fuck the sooner you people get some kids or your parents to look after then maybe just maybe you will start to think about that politics bgins locally .. it means looking after yourself your family your neighbours yor street your hood your area etc etc etc NOT because those people are somehow BETTER than others but that this is the only way we can get community .. fuck me it is the basis of communism

and the only way we can develop any power to resist the shit thrown at us day in day out

fortress europe is protectionism designed to help the bosses make profits .. working class protectionism .. the union .. the closed shop .. scotch cattle .. whatever , which is designed to both protect workers from the excesses of capital AND provide building blocks for the future is SOOOO SOOOOO SOOOO differrent it is astonishing you could confuse them .. but that is the left today

 

[smokedout]

ive got a kid thanks fuckwit

i also live in haringey, an area absolutely full of established and recent migrants, possibly one of the most ethnically diverse communities in the world, certainly in the uk

and our communities doing fine thanks, it only seems to be in areas where there is very little immigration that people rant on about 'them' taking our jobs etc

 

[tbaldwin]

ive got a kid thanks fuckwit

i also live in haringey, an area absolutely full of established and recent migrants, possibly one of the most ethnically diverse communities in the world, certainly in the uk

and our communities doing fine thanks, it only seems to be in areas where there is very little immigration that people rant on about 'them' taking our jobs etc

Did you grew up in Haringey smoked out? Did many of your friends?

 

[smokedout]

fortress europe is protectionism designed to help the bosses make profits .. working class protectionism .. the union .. the closed shop .. scotch cattle .. whatever , which is designed to both protect workers from the excesses of capital AND provide building blocks for the future is SOOOO SOOOOO SOOOO differrent it is astonishing you could confuse them .. but that is the left today

the bosses in fact rather liked the idea you proposed traditionally, keep them thick northerners in there mills and mines while the elite get to live in the south east without having to be surrounded by proles

the bosses never like it when people start getting too ambitious and wanting something a little bit more for themselves

why do you think that the right has always been and still is largely against immigration

 

[tbaldwin]

the bosses never like it when people start getting too ambitious and wanting something a little bit more for themselves

Great bit of analysis!!!!!!

 

[tarannau]

yes absolufuckingutly .. this policy would be the best thing the left have said in a million years .. locally means locally .. i.e as local as possible .. this is right morally and tactically

force the bosses to train kids .. get sustainability in employment .. stop people driving across london to work while someone else drives the other way ( shit wrong thread ) .. gtets kids of the street and give sthem some skills etc etc

ok this isn't easy BUT doing so will help create real connectionsin a way arguing for no borders can never do

yes there are down sides .. insularity etc etc .. BUT we will NEVER fking change ANYTHING if we do not get back some power to do that changing

Isn't this a charter just for insularity, divided communities and a them and us distrust of outsiders, even from the neighbouring towns? Can you think of anywhere in the world, particularly in areas with diverse racial populations, where such an approach has proved beneficial or added to tolerance of other.

FFS, you sound like you've taken a knock on the head and want to return to some near tribal system. The genie's out of the bottle now - you can't hope to return to some insular daydream of people being 'persuaded' to stay where they were born.

 

[smokedout]

Did you grew up in Haringey smoked out? Did many of your friends?

no, i grew up in bradford and moved to london when i was 18 to have a better life

most of my local friends (and colleagues when i was working in haringey) did grow up here yeah

ive only been here 15 years, not that makes a difference