Immigration BLAH BLAH BLAH

[cockneyrebel]

erm...Or belong to an organisation of 30 people who want to end capitalism?
Bit Utopian too dont you think?

Not really as I don't think it's exactly round the corner and in the mean time do a lot of day to day stuff.

Don't try and distract from you utopian nonsense on immigration controls.

Different govts and different countries have had differing policies on migration.
The Labour govt has been very Liberal and confused on the issue and immigration has risen massivelly while they have been in power.
This has had negative consequences not only for people in the UK competing for Jobs and Housing but also on many of the people left behind in countries those migrants come from.

What a load of utopian nonsense. As said already there is no way you could have your dream of stalinist border controls in every country around the world, capitalist economics dictate that, to think otherwise is nonsense.

So you're reduced for calling for fortress style immigration controls in imperialist countries with mass deportations, mass detention centres and ever more harsh immigration controls, so migration is pushed even more onto third world countries. Great, what a socalist.

So why campaign on it then? Surely they should concentrate solely on developing things which can actually "abolish capitalism"?

As it happens the left puts very, very little into "campaigning for open borders" and it's nonsense to say it does. I see you still offer nothing of use or anything practical.

yes absolufuckingutly .. this policy would be the best thing the left have said in a million years .. locally means locally .. i.e as local as possible .. this is right morally and tactically

Firstly this is almost as utopian as tbaldwins ideas. People are moving around in their millions even in internal migration in the UK. What are you gonna do about that? Nothing, because you can't.

So if people move into an area are they gonna have equal rights for the jobs there? What about the NHS. If I move to a different area or if an immigrant moves into an area, will we be less of a priority? And housing. If people move into an area and have the greatest need, will you just say fuck that, there's some other people who have been here longer we'll give the house to them.

Seriously, it's utter utopian nonsense and will end up with fucked up policies which pits locals vs the rest no matter what people's needs.

 

[durruti02]

Can you think of anywhere in the world, particularly in areas with diverse racial populations, where such an approach has proved beneficial or added to tolerance of other..

dear mary mother of jesus this insularity ( which has rarely been exclusive racially . this is a mongrel nation .. and long may it remain!) is the basis of all the rights privalages and freedoms that we have in this country .. how the fuck did we not get these rights without combination, without TUs, without excluding scabs and blacklegs etc etc

if you do not get this, no wonder we are fked in this country by the right wing and the neo libs

 

[militant atheist]

Seriously, it's utter utopian nonsense and will end up with fucked up policies which pits locals vs the rest no matter what people's needs.

Christ - sounds more like dystopia to me

 

[militant atheist]

without excluding scabs and blacklegs etc etc

Surely they were excluded on the basis of their actions - not their origin.

 

[tarannau]

Surely they were excluded on the basis of their actions - not their origin.

Exactly. I suspect Durrutti hasn't really thought this through - local level protectionism is only ever going to lead to rivalry/distrust with outsiders. And as a mixed race bloke myself, my experience of folks keen to keep it 'in the community' has been largely negative - ie 'I'm not racist but those x's don't half smell...'

And for what it's worth, it's not that much a mongrel nation, at least n terms of outward appearance. I'm largely invisible in Brixton, virtually pale in fact. But in other parts of the country I've been amazed at just how 'exotic' some people have found my appearance, complete with the usual boneheaded racism and discrimination at times.

 

[durruti02]

Firstly this is almost as utopian as tbaldwins ideas. People are moving around in their millions even in internal migration in the UK. What are you gonna do about that? Nothing, because you can't.

So if people move into an area are they gonna have equal rights for the jobs there? What about the NHS. If I move to a different area or if an immigrant moves into an area, will we be less of a priority? And housing. If people move into an area and have the greatest need, will you just say fuck that, there's some other people who have been here longer we'll give the house to them.

Seriously, it's utter utopian nonsense and will end up with fucked up policies which pits locals vs the rest no matter what people's needs.

rubbish .. it is fucked up NOW because of all the migration .. can you not see that .. 90% of people who move do not want to .. they have to cos of wages .. what are the benfits of this internal migration?? .. broken families for starters ..

and yes sons and daughters is right .. you never never ask yourself why this is happenning do you??

you can not get it can you that virtually all migration is a consequence of capitalism .. it NEEDS migration .. read atticas thing again .. this critique is basic marxism ..

if we want to challenge capitalism we need to create strong communities .. you seem not to understand this. do you think class struggle just appears from time to time???? think mate why has it disapperred so much since thatcher ????.. since on yer bike and the break up of the old communities????

it is in opposition to this enforced merry go round we suffer that we will build real opposition to capitalism

you meanwhile parrot the same meaningless abstract slogans that have let down a generation of people

 

[durruti02]

Exactly. I suspect Durrutti hasn't really thought this through - local level protectionism is only ever going to lead to rivalry/distrust with outsiders. And as a mixed race bloke myself, my experience of folks keen to keep it 'in the community' has been largely negative - ie 'I'm not racist but those x's don't half smell...'

And for what it's worth, it's not that much a mongrel nation, at least n terms of outward appearance. I'm largely invisible in Brixton, virtually pale in fact. But in other parts of the country I've been amazed at just how 'exotic' some people have found my appearance, complete with the usual boneheaded racism and discrimination at times.

i have thought it through many times bruv

answer/comment me 2 things

1 .. how else did we get all the privalages standard of living etc without combination .. and don't just say imperialism .. that was a source of wealth .. it didn't set out how it was shared out

2 .. local level protectionism does NOT lead neccessarily to racism etc .. in fact the strongest w/c communities tend to be the MOST accepting .. it is political impotence that leads to facism NOT the other way around as you suggest

i also hate this almost racism that communities that are not brixton are backward etc etc .. well that wroites of 99% of teh world then

 

[tarannau]

rubbish .. it is fucked up NOW because of all the migration .. can you not see that .. 90% of people who move do not want to .. they have to cos of wages .. what are the benfits of this internal migration?? .. broken families for starters ..

you meanwhile parrot the same meaningless abstract slogans that have let down a generation of people

Source for this 90% figure please Durrutti. I suspect you've plucked it out of your arse.

I've lived in the same area for over 30 years on and off (Brixton). Neither of my parents come from here admittedly (Guyana/Wales), but I know a fair chunk of locals and the immediate community. And equally I know more than a few University colleagues and graduates moving into the area. And nowhere near 90% have been somehow forced or compelled into the decision to move.

What are the benefits of internal migration? More diverse populations, a greater acceptance of others and a spread of ideas, less chance of children with webbed feet, a more progressive society etc.

 

[tarannau]

2 .. local level protectionism does NOT lead neccessarily to racism etc .. in fact the strongest w/c communities tend to be the MOST accepting .. it is political impotence that leads to facism NOT the other way around as you suggest

Bollocks. Any proof of that as well? My experience of well established, strong w/c class communities has been little like that - Bermondsey, East End, South London suburbs/Essex overspill. Not exactly strongholds of tolerance are they. And I speak from experience of running many a pub in working class areas. It's amazing what racist guff people will come out with when they think you're 'one of them'

You seem remarkably prone to making up unsourced figures and 'facts' to suit your theory. The paucity and lack of logic of your position grows ever morre glaringly obvious.

 

[durruti02]

Source for this 90% figure please Durrutti. I suspect you've plucked it out of your arse.

I've lived in the same area for over 30 years on and off (Brixton). Neither of my parents come from here admittedly (Guyana/Wales), but I know a fair chunk of locals and the immediate community. And equally I know more than a few University colleagues and graduates moving into the area. And nowhere near 90% have been somehow forced or compelled into the decision to move.

What are the benefits of internal migration? More diverse populations, a greater acceptance of others and a spread of ideas, less chance of children with webbed feet, a more progressive society etc.

of course the middle classes are not compelled! globally and probably in britain though 90% of migration is w/c and not by choice .. would you dispute that most afro caribbeans moved from the caribean for money reasons? or that most poles are here for money reasons or that the geordie builders are living in digs for finacial reasons

yes that 90% is a guess but i think you would have trouble showing it is not much less

and again this idea that only through diversity can we achieve progression .. like i said the way the earths population is we are thus fucked .. and like i say it condemns all non diverse communitiesas backward .. nice

 

[durruti02]

Bollocks. Any proof of that as well? My experience of well established, strong w/c class communities has been little like that - Bermondsey, East End, South London suburbs/Essex overspill. Not exactly strongholds of tolerance are they. And I speak from experience of running many a pub in working class areas. It's amazing what racist guff people will come out with when they think you're 'one of them'

You seem remarkably prone to making up unsourced figures and 'facts' to suit your theory. The paucity and lack of logic of your position grows ever morre glaringly obvious.

tbh i think london is differrent and especially overspill areas and particularly south east london .. the barrow boy mentality is very differrent from the union/w/c mentality .. i do not see these as strong w/c communities but as part of the breakdown of those communities ..

i guess i am referring areas where unions were strong as well (but i do not deny there was insularity there too) .. in fact it has been traditional w/c areas that have absorbed the vast majority of non white immigrants too .. far more mixed than m/c areas .. and where people have married

did you read the article in the guardian recently about the yorks asian journo who satyed in consett(?) for a week full of warnings of insularity and racism ..he found it was exactly the opposite

 

[audiotech]

Isn't this a charter just for insularity, divided communities and a them and us distrust of outsiders, even from the neighbouring towns? Can you think of anywhere in the world, particularly in areas with diverse racial populations, where such an approach has proved beneficial or added to tolerance of other.

FFS, you sound like you've taken a knock on the head and want to return to some near tribal system. The genie's out of the bottle now - you can't hope to return to some insular daydream of people being 'persuaded' to stay where they were born.

Ironically, the BNP, in common with many other reactionary movements, is also regressive and parochial. Their vision is based upon a mythical golden age too. However, they want to see a land of rolling pastures, of ruddy-faced farmers and friendly local greengrocers. They hearken to a time when Britain was ‘great’ and every face was that of a stolid Anglo-Saxon.

 

[smokedout]

in fact the strongest w/c communities tend to be the MOST accepting .. it is political impotence that leads to facism NOT the other way around as you suggest

im sorry but thats complete bollocks. the bnp are quite open about the fact that they dont do well in very poor areas, they pride themselves on being the party of the skilled working class and the lower middle classes

and this fetishisation you have of the unions as champions of diversity is misplaced, fuck in the 70's and 80's they were some of the most racist bastards out there

you seem to be losing it duretti, youre becoming ever more grasping and incoherent

why not just admit you were wrong and give up eh

 

[cockneyrebel]

rubbish .. it is fucked up NOW because of all the migration .. can you not see that .. 90% of people who move do not want to .. they have to cos of wages .. what are the benfits of this internal migration?? .. broken families for starters ..

and yes sons and daughters is right .. you never never ask yourself why this is happenning do you??

you can not get it can you that virtually all migration is a consequence of capitalism .. it NEEDS migration .. read atticas thing again .. this critique is basic marxism ..

if we want to challenge capitalism we need to create strong communities .. you seem not to understand this. do you think class struggle just appears from time to time???? think mate why has it disapperred so much since thatcher ????.. since on yer bike and the break up of the old communities????

it is in opposition to this enforced merry go round we suffer that we will build real opposition to capitalism

you meanwhile parrot the same meaningless abstract slogans that have let down a generation of people

You seem to have the same abstract stuff and just repeat it over and over. Who on here is disagreeing that alot of migration is forced or that forced migration is a bad thing. But clearly not all of it is, especially internally in imperialist countries.

Internal migration and international migration will happen on mass under capitalism whether you label it good, bad or whatever else, it's a fact (and under a global socialist society obviously some people will wanna migrate and nothing wrong with that). So where do you go from there?

You say have protected housing lists for local people. Where do you put the boundries? Lets say you have to have been born in the borough. So where do you go from there? Someone moves into the borough and is homeless. What are you gonna say to them? Fuck off, you're not getting a house we're giving it to someone in less need because they were born here.

And what about the NHS? Do you get shoved down the waiting list for operations if you weren't born in the area? And schools? And jobs?

And if I moved from south london to north london should I suddenly lose any priority for all of the above?

 

[Spion]

I must say this thread has provided a great lurk lately. Nice work CR et al in exposing the Royston Vasey boys [/unlurk]

 

[tbaldwin]

Newsnight last night had an interesting discussion on the who gains from economic migration...There was a complete moron on there who was trying to say how good immigration was for everyone and the head of migration watch...with their usual stuff....Anne Cryer the Labour MP was preety good and so was the Tory!...
What none of them really said was how much different groups are effected by immigration.....But there was a really funny bit where the moron who had written a book said that immigration was great for everyone..."It means the investment banker,can go back to work when he employs a polish nanny"
Laugh i nearly found out where he lived.....

 

[cockneyrebel]

Drum roll please, tbaldwin states once again that forced migration is bad and that capitalism uses migration to its advantage.......and once again comes out with nothing practical.......

At least stick to your line of stalinist border controls around the UK and mass deportations, it's something to try and work towards and convince others of.

As for liberal idiots and stories about nannys. Again hardly earth shattering, everyone knows they've got those kinda views. At least try and come up with something new to say.

 

[tbaldwin]

Drum roll please, tbaldwin states once again that forced migration is bad and that capitalism uses migration to its advantage.......and once again comes out with nothing practical.......

At least stick to your line of stalinist border controls around the UK and mass deportations, it's something to try and work towards and convince others of.

As for liberal idiots and stories about nannys. Again hardly earth shattering, everyone knows they've got those kinda views. At least try and come up with something new to say.

I thought the newsnight piece was interesting but didnt want to start yet another thread on immigration.
As for not coming out with anything practical.I have repeated often enough what i think should be done..Its not a fantastic lovely solution that will please everyone its about deciding the least bad answer.

To me it would be far better to take measures to stop economic migration than to allow the miserable consequences of it.

 

[durruti02]

Indeed some lefties, so frightened of their middle class insecurites keep spouting on about listening to the working class (well there's an idea, no socialist has ever thought of that one before ), that they are actually frightened about challenging reactionary ideas in the working class.

just spotted this .. trouble is you do not get to challenge these over hyped reactionary ideas if you do NOT have real contact with people .. handing out anti facist leaflets is a total waste of time .. this again is basic .. peoples ideas do not change in abstact but in community and in struggle .. sloganeering from the outside has and never will suceed

 

[durruti02]

1 You seem to have the same abstract stuff and just repeat it over and over.

2 Who on here is disagreeing that alot of migration is forced or that forced migration is a bad thing. But clearly not all of it is, especially internally in imperialist countries.

3 Internal migration and international migration will happen on mass under capitalism whether you label it good, bad or whatever else, it's a fact (and under a global socialist society obviously some people will wanna migrate and nothing wrong with that). So where do you go from there?

4 You say have protected housing lists for local people. Where do you put the boundries? Lets say you have to have been born in the borough. So where do you go from there? Someone moves into the borough and is homeless. What are you gonna say to them? Fuck off, you're not getting a house we're giving it to someone in less need because they were born here.

5 And what about the NHS? Do you get shoved down the waiting list for operations if you weren't born in the area? And schools? And jobs?

6 And if I moved from south london to north london should I suddenly lose any priority for all of the above?

1 how on earth is this abstract?? ... noting the effects of neo liberalism on labour via immigration and arguing for a turn AWAY from abstract politics like 'open borders' and STW to local issues and trade unionism .. how the fck is that abstract

2 as i have said before READ the SW articles and note what pretty well all lefty posters were saying a year ago .. that migration is GOOD for the w/c .. are you sure you didn't argue this too!

3 but you argue against war .. against sweat shops .. against the export of jobs .. against gangmasters .. against expoitation elsewhere .. so logically you must argue against forced migration .. no?

4 yes this is the nitty gritty and there will be problems and difficulties .. but that is the difficulty with real politics .. like i said before though you are STILL ignoring that it is all supply and demand .. people do NOT move where there are no jobs or houses

5 this is more difficult .. ditto above ..

6 .. ditto

 

[durruti02]

Ironically, the BNP, in common with many other reactionary movements, is also regressive and parochial. Their vision is based upon a mythical golden age too. However, they want to see a land of rolling pastures, of ruddy-faced farmers and friendly local greengrocers. They hearken to a time when Britain was ‘great’ and every face was that of a stolid Anglo-Saxon.

so how come italian fascism was based in futurism??

 

[durruti02]

im sorry but thats complete bollocks. the bnp are quite open about the fact that they dont do well in very poor areas, they pride themselves on being the party of the skilled working class and the lower middle classes

and this fetishisation you have of the unions as champions of diversity is misplaced, fuck in the 70's and 80's they were some of the most racist bastards out there

you seem to be losing it duretti, youre becoming ever more grasping and incoherent

why not just admit you were wrong and give up eh

another anti union rant .. brilliant .. CR/VP/MC5 please note your bedfellows

SO .. so i asked you before think .. so HOW otherwise didwe get the rights and privalages we have in this country without the organisation of the w/c?? all those racists!

 

[treelover]

yeah, i saw that, nearly fell off my chair, the guy is Phillipe Legrain,, an er, economist, he blogs on CIF occasionally, he looked like a Nu labour hack, spookily simalar to the Christian Socialist NL MP, Chris Bryant. he was a grade A plonker, the far left is now in cahoots with people like that, way to go eh?


http://www.philippelegrain.com/

.But there was a really funny bit where the moron who had written a book said that immigration was great for everyone..."It means the investment banker,can go back to work when he employs a polish nanny"
Laugh i nearly found out where he lived.....

 

[revol68]

Durruti your a fucking chump, the idea that criticising unions for racism, sexism or anything else is anti working class is the kind of shit that could only be believed by some working class charicature or rather some fanny acting one. Workers in the seventies were continously in struggle with their unions as well as their employers, minority and women workers frequently went on wildcat over racist or sexual harrasment whilst the unions sat and done nothing. Workers in general went on wildcat and often occupied and protested their union offices in opposition to sell outs and backroom deals.

It's like people have forgotten how shite Old Labour and the TUC unions were because they aren't very relevant anymore.

 

[treelover]

ah, a great friend of the left , i don't think

Trained as an economist, he was a special adviser to WTO director-general Mike Moore and was chief economist at Britain in Europe for three years.

 

[audiotech]

Newsnight last night had an interesting discussion on the who gains from economic migration...There was a complete moron on there who was trying to say how good immigration was for everyone and the head of migration watch...with their usual stuff....Anne Cryer the Labour MP was preety good and so was the Tory!...

I caught the last bit when someone made a valid point about scaremongering. Was he the "moron" you mentioned? I thought Anne Cryer's nonsense about elderly people being terrified of Polish workers, who according to her, work in care homes and who don't speak English, scraping the bottom of a very grubby barrel.

 

[durruti02]

Durruti your a fucking chump, the idea that criticising unions for racism, sexism or anything else is anti working class is the kind of shit that could only be believed by some working class charicature or rather some fanny acting one. Workers in the seventies were continously in struggle with their unions as well as their employers, minority and women workers frequently went on wildcat over racist or sexual harrasment whilst the unions sat and done nothing. Workers in general went on wildcat and often occupied and protested their union offices in opposition to sell outs and backroom deals.

It's like people have forgotten how shite Old Labour and the TUC unions were because they aren't very relevant anymore.

here we go .. whoever said i do not criticise Tus ??? .. the form is correct though ... as equally correct as it was for workers to fight against them when the hold back activity ..

what i see on urban though is you and smoked out and others obsessed with the down sideof TUs instead of the positives .. especially when the state has been progressivel attacking unions and we are down to 20% membership ... do you not think there might be soime correlation with the current impotence of the w/c and this???

 

[tbaldwin]

I caught the last bit when someone made a valid point about scaremongering. Was he the "moron" you mentioned? I thought Anne Cryer's nonsense about elderly people being terrified of Polish workers, who according to her, work in care homes and who don't speak English, scraping the bottom of a very grubby barrel.

I think that most elderly people do want to be cared for somebody who speaks their language.
The moron was the bloke who had written a book!!!!! on immigration and its positive effects..
I thought Anne Cryer was good dont remember her saying terrified?
As for scraping the bottom of a grubby barrel sounds like your nearly trying to say something there...But what is it?

 

[audiotech]

so how come italian fascism was based in futurism??

Italian fascism wasn't based on futurism. However, it's integral parts were based on: nationalism, authoritarianism, militarism, corporatism, anti-liberalism, and anti-communism.

The Futurists explored every medium of art, including painting, sculpture, poetry, theatre, music, architecture.

The Italian poet Filippo Tommaso Marinetti was the first among them to produce a manifesto of their artistic philosophy in his Manifesto of Futurism.

Marinetti founded the Partito Politico Futurista in 1918. This was later was absorbed into Benito Mussolini's Fasci di combattimento. This made Marinetti one of the first supporters and members of the National Fascist Party.

However, he opposed Fascism's later exultations calling them reactionary, as I have done in a previos post.

It was also a Russian movement.

 

[audiotech]

I think that most elderly people do want to be cared for somebody who speaks their language.
The moron was the bloke who had written a book!!!!! on immigration and its positive effects..
I thought Anne Cryer was good dont remember her saying terrified?
As for scraping the bottom of a grubby barrel sounds like your nearly trying to say something there...But what is it?

I know a great deal about care homes and the issue of language is not one I recognise. There are issues to do with some elderly who will not accept care from any black person who was born in this country and speak very good English however.

It would have been helpful to have seen the example she gave of Polish workers with no English working in care homes to get a better understanding of her claims?

On reflection, I believe Anne Cryer said 'scared'.