ID Cards: The Final Countdown...

[taffboy gwyrdd]

http://www.no2id.net

November 25th is the scheduled date to start the registering.

Non EU nationals reapplying for work visas and some other categories are first on the list in a specifically racist implementation of the policy.

Only 6 centres are being used at:

Birmingham, Cardiff, Croydon, Glasgow, Liverpool, and Sheffield

Not sure of protest details at each, though hopefully the excellent website will be useful.

Sadly, all those people who said it wont happen were mistaken because er... it is happening.

First they are comming for the foreigners, and if there isnt too much fuss they'll come for you soon enough.

I believe this is a key moment for the relationship between citizen and state. Please lend what support you can to the campaign to reject this disgusting menace.

 

[ska invita]

http://www.no2id.net

November 25th is the scheduled date to start the registering.

Non EU nationals reapplying for work visas and some other categories are first on the list in a specifically racist implementation of the policy.

Only 6 centres are being used at:

Birmingham, Cardiff, Croydon, Glasgow, Liverpool, and Sheffield

Not sure of protest details at each, though hopefully the excellent website will be useful.

I've been a supporter of no2id from the off, going t oa few of the early set-up meetings, but i've lost all faith in their ability to mount an effective campaign.

*the other day there was a global day of resistance to the police state etc. - went down to new scotland yard - no no2id present, just a few hardy souls

*where is the call out for action on the 25th from no2id? Nowhere. On the 26th theres a Coventry NO2ID Re-launch meeting

Im afraid no2id have done their bit - raising the issue a little, and doing the odd bit of work to the press, but they are incapable of organising a demo, never mind direct action.

I think we need to get our shit together without no2id right now - perhpas a spontaneous uprising would work on this one. There's no way we'd build a movement in time for the 25th, but if we start small at this stage, maybe by the time the cards come out for all of us there'll be enough of a critical mass.

-Sorry, but no2id have fucked it up I think - not they are wholey to blame mind - I guess we all are.

 

[TopCat]

where is the croydon centre?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I've been a supporter of no2id from the off, going t oa few of the early set-up meetings, but i've lost all faith in their ability to mount an effective campaign.

*the other day there was a global day of resistance to the police state etc. - went down to new scotland yard - no no2id present, just a few hardy souls

*where is the call out for action on the 25th from no2id? Nowhere. On the 26th theres a Coventry NO2ID Re-launch meeting

Im afraid no2id have done their bit - raising the issue a little, and doing the odd bit of work to the press, but they are incapable of organising a demo, never mind direct action.

I think we need to get our shit together without no2id right now - perhpas a spontaneous uprising would work on this one. There's no way we'd build a movement in time for the 25th, but if we start small at this stage, maybe by the time the cards come out for all of us there'll be enough of a critical mass.

-Sorry, but no2id have fucked it up I think - not they are wholey to blame mind - I guess we all are.

Thanks for the thought provoking reply. I too have been with No2ID from the off as well as Defy ID.

I share your disapointment dont neccessarily see it all as No2IDs "fault".

There are many factors which, if it werent for the urgency of the case, would make an excellent study in themselves.

In no special order they include:

1) No2ID being too fluffy and lobbying based. After the act was passed in parliament we should, I think, have become more confrontational.
But this is a product of the type of campaign that it is. No2ID is very sparse for activist campaigners of a DA nature and even quite sparse on campaigning experience per se.

2) Which brings us to DefyID. If No2ID are some kind of let down, DefyID are even worse. I attended the national meet 2 years ago where scores of activists swore blue that the iterogation centres would be targetted. I hope they come out of the woodwork next week. This isnt to question the committemnt of individuals but I think there is an overall failure to build mass grass roots oppostion. Perhaps because it isnt in our face enough yet. The state knows to boil the frog slowly.

3) No2ID can only be a sum of its parts. In fact, at a national level the group has a pretty strong "brand" and more supporters than Liberty making No2ID the biggest civil liberties organisation in the UK. It follows that if No2ID is weak, then support for civil liberties is weak. Perhaps we deserve what we get. Sadly I think this issue has passed by too low under the radar of the general activist community. Noborders are very on side now but I did a fairly impromptu workshop at climate camp. Only a minority even there really understood how much work the state has done and the full implications.

Heck, Ive been doing threads on this at U75 for years. They rarely get THAT much interest. There has been (IMO) too much complacency and denial. Now, with a week to go to scheduled kick off this thread has had only your contribution in over a day.

Ive said it before and been attacked but attitudes like "it will fuck up - who cares?" and "i wont bother getting one" are playing right into the hands of the state.

So overall, while I accept No2ID has weaknesses and faults I think the failure to confront the issue is far more down to external than internal matters.

 

[danny la rouge]

First they are comming for the foreigners, and if there isnt too much fuss they'll come for you soon enough.

Well, they're banking on people thinking we need to keep track of those damned immigrants. Then, once it's in, it's in.

 

[xes]

Well, they're banking on people thinking we need to keep track of those damned immigrants. Then, once it's in, it's in.

yup,we're boned

 

[danny la rouge]

yup,we're boned

It's always sex with you people, isn't it?

 

[isitme]

ziggy played guitar

 

[xes]

It's always sex with you people, isn't it?

*nods sagely*

 

[ska invita]

1) No2ID being too fluffy and lobbying based. After the act was passed in parliament we should, I think, have become more confrontational.
But this is a product of the type of campaign that it is. No2ID is very sparse for activist campaigners of a DA nature and even quite sparse on campaigning experience per se.

Sorry to put a dampner on this thread, and thanks for the thoughful reply.

Just another thought on the comment above - do you think that the fact that no2ID is supported by some very wealthy tory types (it is the conservatives of Britain who seem most upset about ID cards... and i dont mean the party) has had an influence on what the groups is willing to do? This is a speculative thought.

The fact is that no2ID really do so very little in terms of a show of public resistance. THe bigest 'victory' was the vote at the Lords - at which we must have had 300 campaigners having a demo as the Lords went in, Hard to imagine that the vote was changed because of no2ID though.

-THe problem with the anti-ID card movement, and Ive said this before, is that there isnt a iD-Day, when they flat-out get introduced, which might well have been enough to trigger a poll tax part 2. Instead we have this drip drip aproach,which has completely wrong-footed 'the movement'. Pathetic really.

This whole subject is really depressing me, and I have to run to work now, but I still hold out some hope that something might arise around this. At the moment that is hinging on the tory bastards winning and not going back on their word about id cards. Might be our best hope ... jesus wept

 

[danny la rouge]

I think those are two important points: the profile of the constituency opposed to ID, and the lack of an ID Day.

Although I can see tactical problems, I'm not sure the former is necessarily a hindrance strategically if understood and used properly.

 

[Rajjie]

From today's Indy:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/pilots-threaten-to-strike-over-id-cards-1023098.html

 

[Barking_Mad]

Tories say they will scrap it. On this one issue i wonder how many people would consider voting for them if it meant ID cards removal?

 

[danny la rouge]

Tories say they will scrap it. On this one issue i wonder how many people would consider voting for them if it meant ID cards removal?

How much did whatsisname improve his majority by in that by election?

 

[Dic Penderyn]

No Borders South Wales have already held protests against the ID scheme and are holding a protest outside the Cardiff centre on tuesday 25th November. All the details here: http://noborderswales.wordpress.com/tag/id-cards/ <- includes address of all the centres etc

Liverpool Defy-ID will be having a protest outside their local centre: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/liverpool/2008/11/412643.html

Glasgow Anarchists will an' all: http://scotland.indymedia.org/node/11687

Not sure about the rest of the country, though there is this on no2id's site: http://forum.no2id.net/viewtopic.php?t=24837

 

[Dic Penderyn]

Oh and No Borders London will be having a protest too: http://noborderslondon.blogspot.com/2008/11/opposing-launch-of-id-cards-nov-25th.html

 

[agricola]

Tories say they will scrap it. On this one issue i wonder how many people would consider voting for them if it meant ID cards removal?

Loads would, especially when you factor in the cost (both to the individual and (at one remove) to the taxpayer) of the imbecilic scheme. As Guido said earlier in the week:

The Tories need to follow the LibDem lead (not a phrase often seen). Point to the £20 billion in savings identified. £20 billion is 3% of government expenditure, expenditure which has nearly doubled under New Labour. Dropping ID cards alone could save nearly half that amount. It costs some £6 billion to raise thresholds £1,000 for everbody, it will defuse the Tory Tax Bomb blowing up in their face.

 

[free spirit]

Is nobody taking Sheffield then?

hmm 1 week to organise an effective protest..........

 

[TomPaine]

This is primarily one of the reasons I wouldn't expect my missus to move back to England now. She'd be on the list of people given these pieces of shit in the first round. Also where we would probably end up living for the first few months is nowhere near any of those bloody centres.

I wonder if we could get Ex-Pats to all write to their embassies complaining that their spouses/children would be unfairly targetted by the scheme. It might not do much but every little helps.

TomPaine

 

[ska invita]

Tories say they will scrap it. On this one issue i wonder how many people would consider voting for them if it meant ID cards removal?

I have never voted tory, or labour of that matter, but I would vote tory if it was guaranteed to mean no id cards - to me tihs is the biggest issue of the last 20 years, with effects that will last for generations.

however i dont trust the tories one bit, and i thoroughly expect them to go back on their word, especially as 'phase 1' is already implemented. so my tory-free karma is safe!

 

[trevhagl]

The only thing we can hope for is a hung parliament. ID cards are very dangerous, yet the Tories would go in for the kill and totally dismantle the welfare state and NHS, and probably ban strikes etc

 

[TomPaine]

Tories would go in for the kill and totally dismantle the welfare state and NHS, and probably ban strikes etc

I don't think they would, having spent all these years out in the cold, I think they will be happy towing the line whilst they get their cushy second homes and MP salaries. Doing anything that is likely to push an already pissed off country into all out riots would scupper any chances they had of winning the next election after. People might be prepared to give them another chance, but I think the Tories know if they get in, they are going to have to be bloody careful.

TomPaine

 

[agricola]

I don't think they would, having spent all these years out in the cold, I think they will be happy towing the line whilst they get their cushy second homes and MP salaries. Doing anything that is likely to push an already pissed off country into all out riots would scupper any chances they had of winning the next election after. People might be prepared to give them another chance, but I think the Tories know if they get in, they are going to have to be bloody careful.

TomPaine

I have said this earlier, but it largely depends on the calibre of Tories we get if they do win the next election. If they continue to look (as they have been for the most part) like sub-Blairite cretins then we are fucked, things will only get worse and there will probably be a severe reaction at the national level when the wheels finally do come off.

If there is enough of a sane influence that means they will reject the madness of ID cards, PFI and all the other immensely wasteful shite that we have seen since 1997, then the country might start to improve.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

my bet would be that the tories would put the scheme on the backburner for a while, perhaps bringing it back to life in a 2nd term.

Much of the infrastructure and contracts will be in place by their first term and dismantling all of that in total might actually be unlikely.

The tories also could be working to a non partisan agenda of control freakery that oppositions dont have to go along with.

If the tories did try and bring it back in the 2nd term expect the disgusting 2 faced sham that is the Labour Party to oppose it.

The tories also thunk it up in the first place.

Anyways, the NIR gets under way next week and I am shocked and saddended that more hasnt been done against it.

we must all be to blame.

Orwell said the future was a boot stamping on the human face forever.

I wonder if he knew how willing we were to lie down before being stamped on.

 

[Darios]

Just another thought on the comment above - do you think that the fact that no2ID is supported by some very wealthy tory types (it is the conservatives of Britain who seem most upset about ID cards... and i dont mean the party) has had an influence on what the groups is willing to do? This is a speculative thought.

There are certainly well-connected people who move in the UK's Libertarian, AnCap and individualist groups. It doesn't affect what the groups are willing to do in a negative sense. If anything it is emboldening many of us. I think there are other factors worth considering:

i) a general public weariness with 'protest culture' - the increasing clampdown on our ability to do it as well as the apparently never ending stream of anti-war protests with ever dwindling numbers, not to mention no clear returns.

ii) the fact that the libertarian right has only recently begun developing some kind of protest culture itself.

iii) a mutual suspicion between "left" libertarian and "right" libertarian groups - although ID card provide a very clear shared interest / cause, both "sides" are concerned about hijacking (e.g. witness the StWC).

iv) ultimately the No2ID campaign is only as good as it's local organisers. Unfortunately the person(s) who nominated themselves to look after the Sheffield campaign have let us down and momentum has been lost.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Darios


i) a general public weariness with 'protest culture' - the increasing clampdown on our ability to do it as well as the apparently never ending stream of anti-war protests with ever dwindling numbers, not to mention no clear returns.

Spot on. And the increase in use of FIT and NETCU is deliberately aimed at putting people off. Its all part of the goon state and the loving government.

ii) the fact that the libertarian right has only recently begun developing some kind of protest culture itself.
Yep. But in the US they are doing a better job than the left. Look at the momentum Ron Paul got compared to say Kucinich.

iii) a mutual suspicion between "left" libertarian and "right" libertarian groups - although ID card provide a very clear shared interest / cause, both "sides" are concerned about hijacking

Yep again. Not used to working with each other either. I imagine some leftists wouldnt have liked comming across say UKIP in No2ID. And some libertarians would feel odd among anarchists. But if we value freedom we have to rise above some things.

iv) ultimately the No2ID campaign is only as good as it's local organisers. Unfortunately the person(s) who nominated themselves to look after the Sheffield campaign have let us down and momentum has been lost.[/QUOTE]

Very very true again. excellent post. Its fine for people to sit on the sidelines and say "No2ID should do this or do that" but what are the armchair experts doing either?

As for Yorkshire, I heard there is a new organiser in recent months who is really on it.

 

[Darios]

Thanks for the responses Taffboy.

We've started organising actions in this area recently - there was for example, our 1984 campaign and November 5th stroll. Since LPUK went live, it's been a lightning rod pulling together all the previously disconnected AnCaps, miniarchists, small c conservatives and even some agorists and mutualists.

It's been my experience that many in the libertarian right (myself included) are more than happy to work alongside libertarian left groups on important single issues like this, but this is not reciprocated - as I'm sure you've seen just on the basis of this forum alone. Your example of Ron Paul is a good one and I don't think it's going to be long before the same happens here, as the libertarian right is expanding rapidly and I think will overtake all the left groups within the next few years as the place to go for radical resistance and thought, albeit of a different flavour.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Darios

Thanks for helping organise.

"It's been my experience that many in the libertarian right (myself included) are more than happy to work alongside libertarian left groups on important single issues like this, but this is not reciprocated - as I'm sure you've seen just on the basis of this forum alone."

The left can barely work with each other tho


"Your example of Ron Paul is a good one and I don't think it's going to be long before the same happens here, as the libertarian right is expanding rapidly"

I dont see that at an organised level to be honest.

"and I think will overtake all the left groups within the next few years as the place to go for radical resistance and thought, albeit of a different flavour"

In some ways I hope you are wrong but if you are right then it can only be the lefts own fault. I am neither libertarian right or orthodox level and can argue the toss on politics all day and night with anyone.

But working together against the surveillance state (NIR is key to the architecture) is too big an issue. Its only really the likes of BNP I wouldnt organise with.

Not all "the left" are as petty as you make out. But too many are.

The thing is that ALL activists should put this urgent campaign very near the top of their list because their ability to organise will be severely screwed by this scheme.

 

[Darios]

Thanks for helping organise.

Hey - thanks for continually flagging this up on the forum (as I guess you are probably also doing elsewhere). Good to see someone is. And it's a real shame so many of the resident crew here are so quick to let such discussions descend into stupid accusations of conspiraloonery, or just plain thread-jacking for the sake of the LOLZ. I guess they'll get the government they deserve. Shame about the rest of us.

The left can barely work with each other tho

It's no surprise though when there's a fundamental cleavage between statists/authoritarians and anti-statists/anti-authoritarians though. The only thing - I can see - that bonds them in a positive sense is notions of collectivism (kind of ironic given the constant infighting). Everything else is a negative bond - anti-capitalism, anti-war etc etc.

I dont see that at an organised level to be honest.

Not surprising - and I don't mean to come across as anyway patronising - however I think that's largely because what the libertarian right are doing in the UK doesn't hit the left's radar. Did you know about the 1984 campaign for example? It garnered an impressive amount of public support. I think it's going to be a real shock to many on the left soon.

In some ways I hope you are wrong but if you are right then it can only be the lefts own fault. I am neither libertarian right or orthodox level and can argue the toss on politics all day and night with anyone.

I don't know why you'd be worried tbh. The bulk or right libertarian viewpoints allow for left libertarian collectivist solutions within them with the proviso that everyone should have the choice. The converse situation appears to result in everyone being collectivised by force if they choose the naughty capitalist or mutualist routes.

But working together against the surveillance state (NIR is key to the architecture) is too big an issue. Its only really the likes of BNP I wouldnt organise with.

Absolutely agreed. And I hope its clear that the libertarian right don't want to organise with the BNP either, despite some crossover in concerns (EU etc).

Not all "the left" are as petty as you make out. But too many are.

Sorry if that's how I came across. It's been an experience of "most" rather than "all" so far. It is because there's still a handful of you I think it is possible to work with I still drop by places like this occasionally.

The thing is that ALL activists should put this urgent campaign very near the top of their list because their ability to organise will be severely screwed by this scheme.

Agree completely, again.

 

[Darios]

Well, you might think that a principled opposition to ID cards would require values based on privacy, sovereignty of the individual etc.

The national ID database is "evil", but if you're on the side of "good" and a database of people's privately given details just happens to fall into your lap, then, well, who cares about principles eh? As BA has already said "I'm not interested in nonsense like rights":

Exhibit 1
Exhibit 2

I rest my case.