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Three found guilty of homophobic murder of Dr Jenkins in Bute Park, Cardiff

krtek a houby said:
That's entirely possible. And it's very sad, if that's the case.

Plenty of LGBT people have had damaging upbringings too.
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Exactly. I've known a couple of people in my life who had very bad upbringings. One in particular.

Both of them though ended up being very caring and good hearted people. One of them actually ended up working in social care. She is a pretty amazing person.



Neither of them ended up torturing and murdering a man.
 
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RainbowTown said:
Exactly. I've known a couple of people in my life who had very bad upbringings. One in particular.

Both of them though ended up being very caring and good hearted people. One of them actually ended up working in social care. She is a pretty amazing person.



Neither of them ended up torturing and murdering a man.
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You need to look at this with a degree of nuance.

Not everyone who has a fucked up childhood becomes a murderer, but people with fucked up childhoods are over represented in the fucked up adult population.
 
nogojones said:
You need to look at this with a degree of nuance.

Not everyone who has a fucked up childhood becomes a murderer, but people with fucked up childhoods are over represented in the fucked up adult population.
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I am looking at it with a degree of nuance. Totally.

Where in my post did I say people with bad childhoods are not over represented "in the fucked up adult population."? Never said that at all.

I was implying the vast majority - including those I personally know - do not torture and beat a man to death. As in this case.
 
RainbowTown said:
I am looking at it with a degree of nuance. Totally.

Where in my post did I say people with bad childhoods are not over represented "in the fucked up adult population."? Never said that at all.

I said the vast majority - including those I personally know - do not torture and beat a man to death. As in this case.
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Maybe I was misreading your post. I took it to mean that the offenders personal morals or some abstract notion of evil alone led them to the path of shitty behaviour and their personal history had no impact on their offending behaviour. By bringing your friends ability to overcome hardship into the conversation, it sort of leads the question... well if they can do it why can't these cunts?

It's a line of debate I hear a lot from people, so if I made assumptions, then please accept my apologies, but everyone has different experiences and not everyone has the social capital or support to get round their past.
 
Magnus McGinty said:
Do we actually know that they all had fucked up pasts? Otherwise what is the purpose of this speculation?
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IIRC I know where at least one of the murderers lives. I can't think of anyone who has been placed there who had a happy pastoral upbringing.

Once again, I'm not defending the people in any way, but increasing intergenerational poverty and the way fucked up people deal with the world is getting worse and it will create more marginalised people. If we want to stop this sort of shit happening we need to find ways of bringing these folks back into society and it will take generations. :(
 
nogojones said:
IIRC I know where at least one of the murderers lives. I can't think of anyone who has been placed there who had a happy pastoral upbringing.

Once again, I'm not defending the people in any way, but increasing intergenerational poverty and the way fucked up people deal with the world is getting worse and it will create more marginalised people. If we want to stop this sort of shit happening we need to find ways of bringing these folks back into society and it will take generations. :(
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Fair dos.
 
nogojones said:
Maybe I was misreading your post. I took it to mean that the offenders personal morals or some abstract notion of evil alone led them to the path of shitty behaviour and their personal history had no impact on their offending behaviour. By bringing your friends ability to overcome hardship into the conversation, it sort of leads the question... well if they can do it why can't these cunts?

It's a line of debate I hear a lot from people, so if I made assumptions, then please accept my apologies, but everyone has different experiences and not everyone has the social capital or support to get round their past.
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I understand and actually agree with your point about how childhood trauma can have a devastating impact on a person when they become an adult. Sadly criminality or self-destruction too often follows. And, yes, it's obvious that lots of victims of these experiences do need proper support from the appropriate organizations in order to come to terms with that trauma - if they are able to get it that is. And in lots of cases they can't, hence the criminality or self-harm that does result from such systemic failures. That is clear. However, two caveats on those points remain for me in this particular case: no one yet knows the backstory of these people (if any). And let's say, hypothetically, even if they all had awful backgrounds, that should not nor does not absolve them of what they've done. They are mitigating circumstances that simply do not lessen the heinous act that they perpetuated upon that innocent man. Like I said there are many damaged people in our society (I gave my friends just as a personal example, nothing more) who have suffered awful backgrounds and who are trying to come to terms with it all, Have closure of a sort, if you will. The struggle will always be there, yes, and will be always be very real and ever present. Likewise, as you alluded to, people's social and economic status play a major part also on that road to recovery. But my point remains: no one yet in this trial has suggested that each of the defendant's background as children/teenagers had a bearing on what they done to this guy as adults. And from what I've read thus far about this case, and by the way they acted in court, I doubt that it did. I stand corrected on that, of course. But I'm not holding my breath. And I reiterate also; even if that was the case, it doesn't excuse them. Even partially. (and I'm not suggesting that anyone is excusing them, by the way. Not at all). The reason I commented about it in the first place was in response to earlier posts that posed the suggestion that maybe one or more of the defendant's may've had a screwed up past which by implication had a mitigating bearing on what they done. I just don't buy it, I'm afraid. Screwed up or not by your past, you don't normally resort to base behaviour like this. Torture and murder. Unless you are utterly deranged. Which I don't think these three are.

I appreciate your post nogojones and I agree with some of what you say. And it would be interesting to perhaps have a thread - if one doesn't already exist, that is - about the coming to terms with childhood trauma and what impact it had, and the support (or not) that someone received. If it was feasible and suitable to do so, of course. But that is a wholly separate issue from this, I think. Which is the point I'm trying to make.

:)
 
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RainbowTown said:
I understand and actually agree with your point about how childhood trauma can have a devastating impact on a person when they become an adult. Sadly criminality or self-destruction too often follows. And, yes, it's obvious that lots of victims of these experiences do need proper support from the appropriate organizations in order to come to terms with that trauma - if they are able to get it that is. And in lots of cases they can't, hence the criminality or self-harm that does result from such systemic failures. That is clear. However, two caveats on those points remain for me in this particular case: no one yet knows the backstory of these people (if any). And let's say, hypothetically, even if they all had awful backgrounds, that should not nor does not absolve them of what they've done. They are mitigating circumstances that simply do not lessen the heinous act that they perpetuated upon that innocent man. Like I said there are many damaged people in our society (I gave my friends just as a personal example, nothing more) who have suffered awful backgrounds and who are trying to come to terms with it all, Have closure of a sort, if you will. The struggle will always be there, yes, and will be always be very real and ever present. Likewise, as you alluded to, people's social and economic status play a major part also on that road to recovery. But my point remains: no one yet in this trial has suggested that each of the defendant's background as children/teenagers had a bearing on what they done to this guy as adults. And from what I've read thus far about this case, and by the way they acted in court, I doubt that it did. I stand corrected on that, of course. But I'm not holding my breath. And I reiterate also; even if that was the case, it doesn't excuse them. Even partially. (and I'm not suggesting that anyone is excusing them, by the way. Not at all). The reason I commented about it in the first place was in response to earlier posts that posed the suggestion that maybe one or more of the defendant's may've had a screwed up past which by implication had a mitigating bearing on what they done. I just don't buy it, I'm afraid. Screwed up or not by your past, you don't normally resort to base behaviour like this. Torture and murder. Unless you are utterly deranged. Which I don't think these three are.

I appreciate your post nogojones and I agree with some of what you say. And it would be interesting to perhaps have a thread - if one doesn't already exist, that is - about the coming to terms with childhood trauma and what impact it had, and the support (or not) that someone received. If it was feasible and suitable to do so, of course. But that is a wholly separate issue from this, I think. Which is the point I'm trying to make.

:)
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Please don't think I'm trying to condone or excuse their behaviour. It's beyond.

I'm more concerned about how we best stop this sort of thing happening again and I think its more a societal issue rather than one of good and evil.
 
nogojones said:
I'm more concerned about how we best stop this sort of thing happening again and I think its more a societal issue rather than one of good and evil.
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Indeed. One of the most famous examples is the Bulger killers (though they were a lot younger). At least one of them had a horrific home life IIRC.

I know a couple of people who got up to criminal stuff (not murder) in their teens as a result of things that were going on at home. Again, doesn't excuse what they got up to, but I can see how they drifted into it. Even lack of parental supervision/parents not giving a shit, then getting in with the wrong crowd, can be enough.
 
nogojones said:
Once again, I think he my have had a bit of a fucked up upbringing. Not through poverty and abuse, but more about lack of nurture and excess privilege.
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It’s clearly odd. How can he learn boundaries when his mother is the Queen and nobody says no?
But it was also an opportunity that barely anyone else gets. That he threw away. Most odd.
 
Magnus McGinty said:
It’s clearly odd. How can he learn boundaries when his mother is the Queen and nobody says no?
But it was also an opportunity that barely anyone else gets. That he threw away. Most odd.
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I can't say I've met the kids of any outrageously rich or privileged people, but the ones that do hear about seem to have a fuckton more issues any most people brought up on the other types of estates.
 
nogojones said:
IIRC I know where at least one of the murderers lives. I can't think of anyone who has been placed there who had a happy pastoral upbringing.

Once again, I'm not defending the people in any way, but increasing intergenerational poverty and the way fucked up people deal with the world is getting worse and it will create more marginalised people. If we want to stop this sort of shit happening we need to find ways of bringing these folks back into society and it will take generations. :(
Click to expand...
You’re missing the pint I think. These vile scumbags were in the park - apparently a known cruising ground to deliberately target gay men to rob and attack. Unfortunately lots of people are marginalised in society for a variety of reasons, but anyone who is capable of targeting a defenceless and weaker person with the purpose of robbing them with violence and then carrying out a sustained 15 minute violent beating while the victim was pleading for his life. Anyone who is capable of such hate driven sustained violence against a person for no reason other than their sexuality, is a dangerous and come individual and no amount of deprivation or abuse should be slipped in as way of explanation. And the girl had 15 minutes to feel sickened and walk away f she chose to.
I’m sure there’s some reason for anders brevik or the nail bomber being murderous hate filled cunts but the fact remains the vast majority of damaged and marginalised people don’t have capacity for such cruelty so maybe it’s a personality disorder or maybe they’re just homophobic bastards that hate gay people but I hope they rot in gaol and dont come out until they’re too old to be a treat to lgbt people
Unfortunately some liberals seem to seem to
 
……..Continued:
Some liberals seem to think passing the equality act or having safe spaces at uni and corporate sponsors at pride somehow mean lgbt people are now safe and accepted in society. While we tolerate a world where 14 countries have the death penalty for being gay and the is no discernible push to boycott the many countries that deprive lgbt people of equal rights, and tolerate religions that promote homophobia and fight tooth and nail to deny us our rights and preach hatred then scum like these homophobic murderers will exit and that is not because of social disadvantage or poverty
 
Southlondon said:
You’re missing the pint I think. These vile scumbags were in the park - apparently a known cruising ground to deliberately target gay men to rob and attack. Unfortunately lots of people are marginalised in society for a variety of reasons, but anyone who is capable of targeting a defenceless and weaker person with the purpose of robbing them with violence and then carrying out a sustained 15 minute violent beating while the victim was pleading for his life. Anyone who is capable of such hate driven sustained violence against a person for no reason other than their sexuality, is a dangerous and come individual and no amount of deprivation or abuse should be slipped in as way of explanation. And the girl had 15 minutes to feel sickened and walk away f she chose to.
I’m sure there’s some reason for anders brevik or the nail bomber being murderous hate filled cunts but the fact remains the vast majority of damaged and marginalised people don’t have capacity for such cruelty so maybe it’s a personality disorder or maybe they’re just homophobic bastards that hate gay people but I hope they rot in gaol and dont come out until they’re too old to be a treat to lgbt people
Unfortunately some liberals seem to seem to
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Please point to where I've condoned their behaviour? Or where I've said that with cuddles and love we could rehabilitate these three individuals?

But they didn't pop out of the womb with hate in their eyes. That hate and nihilism was created. We can't do anything more for Gary Davies, but maybe we can look to find ways of stopping people getting to the point of doing things like this again.
 
The hand wringing on the perpetrators childhood is a dead end, because even if that was the case what are you going to do ? Eradicate bad childhoods and bad parents ? How are you going to do that ? And what are you going to do about killers who had happy childhoods ? There are those too and how are you going to rationalise their actions ?

One thing you should be thinking about instead is why when it comes to the murder of gay men, the victims still are the ones to get blamed. It happened with Dennis Nilsen, it happened with Stephen Port and it happened here:

Dafydd Enoch QC: "Sadly, his sexual predilections were to be his undoing. By engaging in this activity, he rendered himself hopelessly vulnerable and was an easy target. By its very nature the activity was infused with risk." It wasn't his "sexual predilections" which killed him, it was homophobic cunts who couldn't see his humanity because his sexuality and because of a world where homophobia still is everywhere.

www.bbc.com

Bute Park: QC denies victim blaming in homophobic attack case

Dafydd Enoch QC faces criticism for saying the victim was undone by his "sexual predilection".
www.bbc.com

Even at the trial of his murderers, the victim was subjected to homophobic reasoning.
 
nogojones said:
I can't say I've met the kids of any outrageously rich or privileged people, but the ones that do hear about seem to have a fuckton more issues any most people brought up on the other types of estates.
Click to expand...

Well there’s an anarchist argument that wealth disparity fucks those on both sides of the spectrum which I don’t disagree with. But people have agency. They don’t have to kick folk to death or nonce about with young girls.
 
Reno said:
The hand wringing on the perpetrators childhood is a dead end, because even if that was the case what are you going to do ? Eradicate bad childhoods and bad parents ? How are you going to do that ? And what are you going to do about killers who had happy childhoods ? There are those too and how are you going to rationalise their actions ?
Click to expand...

Not saying it's relevant in this case, but surely it comes down to things like social services, tackling poverty, giving youths supervised spaces to hang out, better mental health services, etc. There is plenty we can tweak as a society to hopefully allow kids to grow into better adults. Just depends on how much value we put on this.
 
Reno said:
The hand wringing on the perpetrators childhood is a dead end, because even if that was the case what are you going to do ? Eradicate bad childhoods and bad parents ? How are you going to do that ? And what are you going to do about killers who had happy childhoods ? There are those too and how are you going to rationalise their actions ?

One thing you should be thinking about instead is why when it comes to the murder of gay men, the victims still are the ones to get blamed. It happened with Dennis Nilsen, it happened with Stephen Port and it happened here:

Dafydd Enoch QC: "Sadly, his sexual predilections were to be his undoing. By engaging in this activity, he rendered himself hopelessly vulnerable and was an easy target. By its very nature the activity was infused with risk." It wasn't his "sexual predilections" which killed him, it was homophobic cunts who couldn't see his humanity because his sexuality and because of a world where homophobia still is everywhere.

www.bbc.com

Bute Park: QC denies victim blaming in homophobic attack case

Dafydd Enoch QC faces criticism for saying the victim was undone by his "sexual predilection".
www.bbc.com

Even at the trial of his murderers, the victim was subjected to homophobic reasoning.
Click to expand...
The defence were particularly shitty in trying to apportion some blame to the victim here.

And I don't think that individuals with rosy, loving childhoods should be treated differently to those who were dragged up. They commit offences like this and deserve what's coming to them.

Finally yes, I'd like to try and find a way of eradicating bad childhoods and parenting, but from what I said earlier, even if we start improving the material conditions today it will take generations. But we need to start somewhere or it's just going to get slowly worse.
 
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